And long range, and close combat. Theyre optimised but they are not what I want every heavy infantry link to be.
BS16 burst 2 missile launcher, 2 wounds, ARM3 and MSV1 puts them up there with the best long range strikers there are. BS16 BSGs, stun grenades, Multi rifles, Spitfires and Tinbot B and specialist profile make them great for CQB. Hyperdynamics lets them dodge grenades and templates like taking a piss. It's fucked that these cost the same as a Zuyong. The only good redress is to bring down the price of a Zuyong core by comparison, and that will involve cheap filler. The only cheap filler that fits the theme are the remotes.
I don't want bland, I want solid niche with balanced cost. If that niche means "low-cost HI link", then we're talking about stealing most of the Wu Ming weapons options, especially SMG+Chain Rifle. For a long-range option, if Multisniper isn't desirable due to points, I'd want to grab either a Mk12 or a Marksman Rifle (both have about the same range bands). If I was being a dick, I'd make it a Multi Mk12. I'd kinda like to give the Multisniper to the Daofei... Gameplay wise, I want to be able to take 7-8 HI and have the other models be REMs. (Or 5-7 HI, a couple Tigers, and the rest REMs).
Since we're currently on the topic of lowering costs to make stuff viable, I would like to remind you that things like "discount for being E-dron" (and arguably Q-dron) exist in this game :P
Zuyong are already ARM 3 and giving them more close range (i.e. cheap) weapons means you're intruding more on Wu Ming design space rather than less. Bumping Wu Ming to Frenzy would have effects on ISS and Ikari, not just IA, though they are good candidates for both Frenzy and Natural Born Warrior or similar low-key bully-level close combat skill. Simply replacing the dual Breakers with a single normal pistol should drop Zuyong combi to 25 points, rounding error not accounted for, without going to the close range Wu Ming territory (btw, a Zuyong without Breakers, carrying an SMG and Chain Rifle as extrapolated from Wu Ming, would cost 20 points). Dropping the breakers, however, is a nerf to the popular HMG profiles. As an important note on Zuyong and Wu Ming, there is exactly 1 profile that's very popular in vanilla and that's the Zuyong LT HMG. If the Zuyong HMG profiles received an SWC discount similar to the LT profile, I think you'd see them in vanilla a lot more than just as token LT. As it stands, however, I don't think there's any way you'll really design a fairly plain trooper with combi rifle (or shorter range) to be popular in vanilla as long as it carries a cost in the high teens or higher, so you'd have to look at the special weapon profiles. I'd like to see Zuyong be the only HI with a sniper rifle (instead of the Multi Rifle profile) and a Marksmans Rifle wouldn't be amiss (on the tinbot profile I'd say). The large number of Combi Profiles are there for filling the link with cheaper specialists. That said, this is wishlisting. I think Zuyong are solid enough for fireteams and trying to cram them in to vanilla is going to be nearly impossible with the exception of SWC profiles. Time will tell how well they function once IA is released. But in summary, I'd like to see these profiles on Zuyong, changes in bold; Combi Rifle, 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife - 27/0 Marksman Rifle (Tinbot B), 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife 31/0 HMG (Automedikit), 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife 39/1,5 Multi Sniper Rifle, 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife 35/1,5 Missile Launcher (Automedikit), 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife 37/1,5 Combi Rifle (Forward Observer), 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife 28/0 Combi Rifle (Doctor), 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife 31/0 *** Combi Rifle Lieutenant, 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife 27/0 HMG (Automedikit) Lieutenant, 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife 39/1 I think this would give sufficient room for Wu Ming to co-exist since it significantly pushes Zuyong to long range, leaving Wu Ming for short range duty. Ideally, Wu Ming should have a Haris profile on one of the Duo profiles. *** Or for better vanilla control, instigate a Zuyong Gongcheng/Yisheng separate unit that is linkable with Zuyong and where AVA can be kept low in vanilla - however, with the departure of Tokusetsu from vanilla, I think there's room for both Doctor and Engineer on Zuyong but AVA on Zuyong is probably too high in vanilla regardless and could be dropped to 3. I want to remember the Aragoto BSG being 19 points before as well. The Combi+LSG profiles are 1 points too cheap compared to the BSG profile, so CB might've tweaked that particular combination with an "overlap discount". We'll see if that carries over to Bolts (and how "inadequate" people will call the adjustment). E-Dron... eugh... and there's people saying there exist no more hand-adjusted stuff in this game. Q-Dron pays 2 points less for Mimetism than basically everyone else.
I'd be OK with that. It is kinda odd that the cheap-and-plentiful Zuyong is packing dual Breaker Pistols, after all. Yeah, that would be a good shift to allow Zuyong and Wuming to coexist. You want the Wu Ming to be taking the more dangerous jobs, after all. Personally, I'd want the Zuyong to be cheaper, but I could be persuaded to run with this change instead. I think we'd be better off doing Zuyong Gongcheng and Yisheng separate AVA from the basic Zuyong, like how the Zanshi work. Linkability is not necessarily required (again, see Zanshi and Keisotsu/Tokusetsu), but it would be nice.
I'd say, fairly roughly speaking, that a Doctor or Engineer that doesn't have much going for it other than being a Doctor or Engineer in terms of either incidental movement or being Plan A or Plan B (main hitter or reserve hitter) are going to be performing above all else only their role as Doctor or Engineer. That's why Tokusetsu were more popular than Gongcheng - that extra point on the Gongcheng went somewhere you didn't really need it to go. For vanilla factions there's not many models with incidental movement to take them close to their objectives on their own. Not a Sophotect with increased movement and not a Machaon with eclipse grenades and competent melee, a Tokusetsu, 112 or even Hospitaller Doc aren't going to get any orders unless shit has hit the fan and needs cleaning up. Having the HI Doc/Engi be linkable is vital for their function as a force multiplier. Without that I'm not sure we're not better off with as cheap a Zhanshi as we can make them, 'cause it's going to be the helper bot that gets into combat. The alternative is if the Zuyong Gongcheng and Zuyong Yisheng gets some specific extra love to make them function on their own, such as a Light Rocket Launcher and Light Flamethrower for the Gongcheng and a Viral Combi Rifle on the Yisheng (or everyone's favourite go-to solve-it-all Mimetism) - something to up their combat performance enough to merit spending actual orders on. Or, put a different way, that combat engineer that the game is missing.
Even outside using a helperbot, a 2W doc or engineer can do things that your basic 1W can't: Tank a hit on the way to the problem. Got a mine or ARO corridor blocking access to the console? With a 1W specialist, you have to spend enough orders to deal with the threat before you can move the specialist into position. But with a 2W specialist, you can simply choose to tank a wound and keep going to the objective. Even if you Move+Shoot at the AROer, that's essentially a free shot. You don't care about whether or not you actually kill the AROer. I'd really like to make the HI Combat Engineer in a bomb suit: Total Immunity (and maybe Bio Immunity). Still only ARM3, but slightly better than just a Zuyong with Engineer and D-Charges. LRL and Light shotty, or maybe Combi+E/Mitter. And how about Breaker Combi for the Doc, as YJ does have Breaker Combis already.
I was going for the medical gun kind of angle :) Yes, a 2w Zuyong doctor can do a lot of things a Zhanshi can't, but on the other hand most of those things can be accomplished by Zuyong Forward Observer and data suggests no one is taking* Zuyong in vanilla, nor Wu Ming, (where they by necessity act solo) unless they also carry a big gun and won't have to spend so many orders getting to a spot where they can reach out and touch the enemy. @Section9 your unit sounds like it'd work phenomenally as an S5 model. I'd model it along the lines of the SWAST, however, I don't see a reason to make such an exceptional unit have mediocre stats * including when theory-crafting a list
I don't think theres any need to drop the points on the Zuyong. 26 boarding shot gun and 27 combi options are already very cheap. For 28 points you get an FO with combi. Thats really good for its price. Yu Jing ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 ZÚYǑNG HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1.5 | 35) ZÚYǑNG Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 30) ZÚYǑNG (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 28) ZÚYǑNG (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 28) ZÚYǑNG Missile Launcher, Light Shotgun / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (2 | 36) 4 SWC | 157 Points Open in Infinity Army This is a pretty great linked team already. Nigh unhackable too. The real question I have about the IA is what can I take to support this link. If theres a CoC option then I can take the HMG LT and save some SWC.
Since the Zhanshi Yisheng and Gongcheng will get new sculpts in June, I am relativly sure they will be in the next Sectorial, as long as they dont resculpt all support boxes now and they are the first ones . For the rest I am curious about the "Shooting Star", as I like the Tigers and one with 2W is hopefully a little more durable, probably other weapon options or a melee focus would be nice. I am also hoping for a new SK since we won't get Guilang and Kanren I guess. And the Ninja will probably be AVA 1 as in ISS. I think forward Deployment or mechanized deployment togeather with mimetism or ODD would work great. And I would be very happy if the Guijia is getting something nice, its a pity that he has no special skills, but I have no idea what would really fit.
*smacks forehead* Don't know why I thought they were 4 when I posted that. Probably coffee related... definitely coffee related.
Without frenzy/impetuous I don't think we'll see an HI in IA with the same 'efficiency' as Grrls/Tanko/Domaru/Magisters and thematically I don't see that as being a thing IA would use as a rank and file unit. That being said, I wouldn't be surprised to see Zuyong profiles unique to IA. There is precedent for such things in other sectorials.
Personally I'm not convinced by the twin breaker pistols on zuyong. They feel like a hero unit weapon set rather than a line infantry one even if its an elite unit. With that in mind I'd take them off the zuyong and make more of a feature of them on the shangji. Which brings me to what to do with them. With the loss of the Shikami there is a spot for a combat capable specialist skirmisher. Rather than focus on the anime ninja theme there is a lot of inspiration to be taken from Hong Kong action films and Korean cinema such as The Raid or more recent Hollywood films like John Wick. The other thing I'd like to see is CB drawing on some more three kingdoms elements to coincide with Creative Assembly releasing the next installment of the Total War franchise.
Point taken. I'm partially trying to come up with relatively inexpensive reasons to take non-big-gun Zuyong in vanilla. (I often take the Wu Ming MultiLGL by itself for Spec Fire, if you haven't tried it it's really entertaining. Spec Firing on 10s at 8-16!) Yeah, the actual bomb suit is a clunky, heavy, slow, pain in the ass, so 4-2MOV would be appropriate. But I'd want a S5 model to be at least ARM5, which would make the Bomb Squad model prohibitively expensive as a specialist. For that matter, making the Bomb Suit a 1W MI with Total Immunity wouldn't be bad. The problem isn't really the link team price, it's everything else in IA. The Invincible Army is the HI sectorial. Take that link team and add a Yan Huo HRMC for really big guns. You're out of SWC for a hacker of any kind (or any other support, for that matter). So you gotta take the Zuyong LT. Change the second Zuyong FO to the Paramedic for doctoring Classifieds. Assuming that we can convince CB to allow the Tactical Reconnaissance Section of the Invincible Army to be in the IA sectorial, you take a Daofei hacker for midfield work. I'm kinda hoping we can get a Daofei KHD in addition to the AHD, for protecting the AHD. But there's not enough points for putting two Daofei in the list if you take a Yan Huo. I wouldn't mind seeing the Daofei to go to ARM3 (and keep camo+infiltration) to save a few points, actually, but that's a different conversation. So this is what you're up to: Yu Jing ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 7 ZÚYǑNG Lieutenant (AutomediKit) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1 | 39) ZÚYǑNG Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 30) ZÚYǑNG Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 29) ZÚYǑNG (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 28) ZÚYǑNG Missile Launcher, Light Shotgun / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (2 | 36) YĀN HUǑ Hyper-Rapid Magnetic Cannon / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 54) DÀOFĚI Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) MULTI Rifle / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0.5 | 59) 6 SWC | 275 Points Open in Infinity Army 7 orders, 25 points and no SWC remaining. Not enough points for a Tiger Soldier (unless we assume the Daofei KHD), and that wouldn't be a Tiger specialist. Uhm. Weibing combi+FO remote is 16|0, and another specialist is good (a fast specialist is even better). That leaves 9 points and no SWC. That's a choice of Chaiyi fast repeater or the Yaopu Minesweeper baggagebot, I lean towards the baggagebot because Minesweeper. Don't get me wrong, that's a beast of a list, all the subtlety of a nuke. 7 HI, with 5 in a link team. But where's the Shang Ji? Where's the Hac Tao? Where's the Shooting Star? You know, the OTHER troops in the Invincible Army? If you're introducing new models for the sectorial, you're going to want to be able to take them at less than 400 points. Now, it's possible (maybe even likely) that we're going to see mixed Zuyong+Shang Ji link teams. That actually makes the problem worse, because it makes the Core team more expensive. That's why I think the Zuyong profiles all need to lose about 2 points, which will drop the Core team cost 6-10 points. Easiest way to do that is to drop the dual Breaker Pistols, second easiest way would be to tweak the points formula so that any amount of CC skill under 18 is simply free (though that would require re-pointing everything in the game, it's a relatively simple update to Army 6 once it happens). Never do anything important, not even post on an internet forum, without at least one cup of coffee in the system!
Probably an zhuyong more than get a discount ( just for being Zhuyongs xd) could link with remotes ( except the TR one, that could be madness). Like a Weibing: Yu Jing──────────────────────────────────────────────────5 ZÚYǑNG Ametralladora / 2 Pistolas Breaker, Cuchillo. (1.5 | 35) ZÚYǑNG Fusil Combi + 1 TinBot B (Deflector N2) / 2 Pistolas Breaker, Cuchillo. (0.5 | 30) ZÚYǑNG (Observ. de Artillería) Fusil Combi / 2 Pistolas Breaker, Cuchillo. (0 | 28) ZÚYǑNG Escopeta de Abordaje / 2 Pistolas Breaker, Cuchillo. (0 | 26) Yaókòng WÈIBĪNG Fusil Combi, Sniffer / Pulso Eléctrico. (0 | 16) 2 CAP | 135 PuntosAbrir en Infinity Army[/u With some imaginative links with remotes an a high AVA for them IA should be able to reach 13-14 orders Without Zhansis. I love zhansis and i really want to give some use to the special weapon box xD, but at least in the core book the invencible army is a separeted army. Don't know, maybe IA gets some special rule to get more orders or a lot lf strategos level 1 in frontline HI ( with no CoC ofc xD). The Shang-Ji could take this role perfectly. As an elite HI i think it should get superior stats and some camo/visor + operative specialist ( sound boring for vanilla but the Shang-Ji is called to be the typical sectorial niche troop). I'm pretty dure daofei stays on WB ( the only elite banner army?). The droop IA in my opinion should reach 60-70 point to no take the tiger place in vanilla. And how do you feel about some a s2 remote HI with maybe one wound and NWI able to link with all cores (more or less like Hazfa roke) with not too many weapons ( combi or light shotgun) but with med or enginier option. Like a hight tech option to suport in field a small and elite army?
New point of discussion! Of the known Invincible Army units, only Tigers fit the role of Veteran, Elite, Headquarters or Chain of Command. Hac Tao are also Elite, Daofei are Veterans. Given how there's one new Classified Objective and one new ITS mission that requires Veterans and Elites, this is kind of terrible. Or put it differently; Yu Jing keeps on being the worst faction at abducting people.
By the moment we are fucked. It have sense to be the tiger , he/she is the definition of comando. Avduct people is more for ISS x). But Shang-Ji should be elite by definition
