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Theorizing Ensign Katherine Cho, Psi Unit

Discussion in 'O-12' started by Bruno Braga, Nov 27, 2019.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Again, I disagree with this interpretation.

    Cho is for all intents and purposes a Varangian Guard if she Holo1:s as a Varangian Guard in all cases where an opponent is concerned. All information regarding that model is going to be exactly what that it is a Varangian Guard. Disclosing that the Varangian Guard is not Impetuous would be disclosing Private Information.
    However, it is very important to remember that Holo1 does not allow you to fake orders, and as such you are under no circumstances allowed to place an Impetuous Order Marker next to the Model that Cho hides under and it is very important that you are extra careful to actually place the Impetuous Orders next to all the real Impetuous miniatures. Generating orders - or more precisely not generating orders - isn't in the cancellation clauses for Holo1 and until such a time Cho's identity is entirely private information, just like how you don't need to disclose that that Varangian actually has cover until after shots have been allocated on her.
    As is often the case, Marker management is a chore that mostly eats precious time, so if you skip placing all those orders next to their miniatures, then I agree you have to point out when Cho's Varangian model doesn't generate the order.

    Edit: Using the example of Minelayer;
    Disclosing the public-facing information of the Holo:ing Spec Ops is precisely what you need to do, that people don't do it when they make use of a skill to say when a unit has changed public information is a huge problem. The error is with the real, non-Holo, Minelaying Regular handling in that example, not with the handling of the Spec Ops.
    So I find that example to be more an argument to handle your real Varangians better, than it is to reveal private information regarding a Holo:ed trooper
     
    #21 Mahtamori, Nov 29, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2019
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  2. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    This is mostly a best practice thing. You normally wouldn't have the problem, because in a live game the sane thing to do is to start with your Orders laid out and just remove stuff as things die.
    Technically it's on your opponent to notice that this one guy doesn't have the Impetuous Order, but he won't get the chance for it when we're playing the game like a normal person.

    Holo1 won't be cancelled either way. You'll simply have to disclose the discrepancy as this part of the Holo1 Trooper's Private Information becomes public Information during the Order count. When in doubt I'd pull the fair play ITS paragraph, suggesting you're not supposed to attempt withholding information hoping to gain an advantage.
    Having a Hacking Device Identify a Holo Marker as targetable/untargetable doesn't reveal it either. It just reveals all relevant information he is supposed to know about Hacking vulnerabilities, that's it.

    The example to compare to would actually be getting shot at.
    A BS Attack declaration doesn't reveal it, but during Resolution before dice come into play the fact that a Trooper can claim Partial Cover will become Open Information. If the Holo trooper does nothing that would reveal him and the shooter misses, the Holo Trooper stays masked.
    I'd argue that the Order Count is a pretty similar situation, even regarding the same Skill - Impetuous.

    There is no reference in the rules that mentions any difference in between 3/3 Mines or 2/3 Mines.
    Most people just never mention 3/3 Mines during deployment and that's again just the sane thing to do, although technically incorrect to play it that way. Minelayer is Private Information but not the 2/3 Mines, so people play that wrong all the time and don't mention the missing Mine (Minelayer should probably lose its Private Information status as it doesn't do anything right now).
    Both Minelayers themself and Holo troopers pretending to be Minelayers are pretty much obvious as a result - unless you want to fake a Holo Trooper with a Minelayer not using his Minelayer Skill.
     
  3. ZlaKhon

    ZlaKhon New scale enthusiast

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    I think we agree on all the holo 1 stuff, but I'm really not convinced that she is the best possible LT. I am currently quite convinced about the performance of the Gamma and I feel Gamma LT plus Cho CoC is a really efficient setup. Alpha LT plus Cho CoC might also be worth considering for LI lists that can afford to tuck away 46 points like that.
     
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    While we're side-tracked, I'd just like to point out that on the courtesy list, which is what most people use to shorten the model introduction process significantly, the default for mines is 3/3 so if you've used Minelayer you're going to need to divulge that there's a difference between the information given and the information on the table.

    Out of interest, which Gamma? I've been mightily unimpressed by the Feuerbach's ability to do anything useful.

    Cho CoC, regardless of what you hide her as, should be great together with Alpha. Same reversed. Simply having another body in another location will make Speculative Fire alpha strikes so much less impactful. Double Alpha is a bit... pricey...
     
  5. ZlaKhon

    ZlaKhon New scale enthusiast

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    I've been playing a lot of LI lately (in LI events and also outside of LI events just because I like my list) and the Gamma Feuerbach is amazing for me. He's an amazing data tracker in e.g. Acquisition with his heavy pistol and the Feuerbach helps to kill TAGs with ease. I find that the pair of Gamma Feuerbach and Epsilon HMG complement each other really well and allow to attack pretty much anything on your active turn. I also like how the Gamma is a good ARO option against warbands, especially when on overwatch on oblique lanes that are hard for the opponent to get into with his active turn threats. In a meta that's very light on TAGs and HI I'd give the Gamma HMG a try before judging, but in general I am very committed to the "Gamma > Omega" camp for the time being.
     
    #25 ZlaKhon, Nov 29, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2019
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  6. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    The Gamma Feuerbach is primarily an ARO unit and only a secondary attacker. O-12 has plenty of great and affordable HMG platforms so taking the Feuerbach is not a setback. Its also your dedicated anti-armor. If you need a TAG destroyed or theres any other tough units without visual mods moving around, you can rely on the Gamma Feuerbach to wipe them out.
     
    #26 Death, Nov 30, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019
  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I played an O-12 opponent just yesterday who used their Gamma in exactly the opposite of what you describe here :p
    (I lost the game mostly because I failed to find a spot for my Alpha on a roof, so he waltzed a Lynx Plasma Carbine over to my Alpha and shot him up turn 1, still gave him the old what-for and almost brought the game back if I had been more cautious with my Epsilon)

    It's extremely spikey, shooting an Epsilon at short range is no problem if your opponent rolls poorly. Taking on a TR REM can be done, you can rely on gutsing to cover if you fail but the REM will be dead. Most of all I think my opponent took a bunch of 50-50 chances with it and won each one of them until I was out of heavy guns. The fact that my hackers consistently failed throughout the tournament wasn't helping.

    (In Transmission Matrix; what wins of Gangbuster KHD, Sirius AHD, Beta KHD vs a single Druze KHD? Druze of course!)
     
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  8. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    The Gamma is basically a light TAG which is awesome. I think that the Heavy Pistol with B3 is also heavily overlooked, its definitely something on the Kriza which has proved very effective for me.
     
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  9. realder

    realder Member

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    Bah! Gamma is a big stompy Brodude, I just played it like one plays big stompy Brodudes. Stomp, stomp, dakka :)
    No sense in hiding in the backfield with all them wounds and all that armour.

    As for Cho, that's a tricky one. Deploying her as a KHD Cyberghost sounds like one of the best options (@Mathamori: great idea!) considering that they cost almost the same (Cho 20 pts, KHD CG 21 pts).
     
  10. LeeroyVinland

    LeeroyVinland O-12 Agent

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    Full Auto makes the Gamma a real nice offensive unit. I played several games with it and it sucked as ARO piece but really played nice when I ploughed through the enemy.
     
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  11. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it sucks at all as an ARO piece. Most ARO units are not there to kill lots of enemies, they are there to slow down the enemy. Make them waste orders dealing with him even if that means just having to spend orders throwing smoke.

    If you want to kill, use the active turn with high burst weapons. goods AROs are either
    1) cheap and disposable
    2) using hidden deployment or a camo marker (snipers)
    3) Are just tanky HI with a dangerous ARO.

    The Gamma Feuerbach is a tanky ARO that can double as a decent burst attacker. But, and as always this depends on what long range threats your facing, you should keep the Gamma exposed to ARO enemies to make use of its tankness. It really is a mini TAG and like any multi HMG TAG, you want to make use of that dangerous explosive ARO and tankyness by using it in ARO.

    If your just going to hidden your Gamma in total cover then theres a case to be made to just take an Omega HMG.

    P.S. Yes, the heavy pistol + full auto lvl 1 is pretty sweet.
     
    #31 Death, Dec 1, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2019
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  12. Leviathan

    Leviathan Hungry Caliban

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    Gamma feuerbach scares people. They avoid it especially with multi-wound troops. HMG they can be pretty blase about.
    Feuerbach also makes Gamma really good as part of coordinated orders. Do people respond to the HMG, the sniper, or the explosive round?
     
  13. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    with FA1 you're probably still better off going for the AP+DA round as it'll be B2 in the coord as opposed to b1.
     
  14. Leviathan

    Leviathan Hungry Caliban

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    Depends on the other shooters to my mind. But i get your point.


    As for Holo1 candidates - a non obvious one for me would be a Sensor Deva. It's just the sort of unit you'd expect to be prone on a rooftop, and something fairly harmless that you'd typically ignore.
     
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  15. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Feuerbach also has that +0 range band which can be very useful as B3 hitting on 11s at targets in cover over 32" will probably come in handy at some point.
     
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  16. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Cho is here

    Lock and load comrades
     
  17. Leviathan

    Leviathan Hungry Caliban

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    So is Kendrat, somehow... not sure if mistake or intended, but an interesting addition either way.
     
  18. Bruno Braga

    Bruno Braga Well-Known Member

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    So after a busy streak with work I can get back on this thread.

    With everything discussed, despite the few off topic posts, we seem to like the following options as the Holo she'd hide under:
    1. Cyberghosts, Quantronic Intervention Unit (KHD)
    2. Hippolyta, Amazon Officer
    3. Lambda (Doctor or Engineer)
    4. Varangian Guard
    Out of these four profiles, the one that I like the most is the Cyberghost KHD. Considering that my lists then to include 2 AHD Team Sirius + a HD+ Cyberghost, a KHD won't look out of place at all - especially since it won't be AROing against most hackables (like @Mahtamori mentioned). The similarity in points could also help with hiding it.

    Hippolyta could be an interesting idea especially when you're also fielding the real one and have to go second. In my meta, my friends try to kill her as soon as possible as we've mentioned to use her to absolutely decimate a whole army on her first turn. So having that backup could be interesting, however you'd be hiding her as a high value target and I feel like that might get around the whole point of Holoprojector and protecting either our Lieutenant or a CoC unit.

    The Lambdas have their own issue. Without an attached Yudbot it might be a bit weird to the trained eye, although most players might just ignore or not notice the missing yudbot, and it could give away your ruse from the getgo. However there's merit here, it's a relatively low impact piece, and opponents might not be surprised when it starts to move up the board to potentially heal someone or press a button. It's a valid option but not my favorite.

    Oh Varangian Guard. What a sweet sweet model that we get the pleasure of throwing at our opponents. However it's a model that like with Hippolyta, would only work if you're going second and would give up the game as soon as you generate your order pool or when/if Cho gets shot at and benefits from cover unlike a real Varangian. I think this argument would apply to any impetuous model as well, including the new Kendrat.
     
  19. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
    Warcor

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    Yeah, my regular opponents always roll their eyes at me when I point out that an Acontecimento Regular Sensor, or a Bagh-Mari Sniper, has only two mines remaining and "a mysterious Camo marker within 8", the contents of which you could NEVER POSSIBLY know".

    But the people playing that wrong are the people who DO NOT specifically point out the count on disposable equipment.
     
  20. Kiwi Steve

    Kiwi Steve Well-Known Member

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    You are the only person I've ever played who has disclosed this. I thought it was hilarious, but very good sportsmanship.

    I guess most other minelayers I've played have been camo so it hasn't really mattered at deployment, but very rarely is it disclosed when they later reveal.
     
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