Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by barakiel, Dec 27, 2018.
Hmm. I don't hate Patsy there. NCO helps a bit, even if it's just a Nimbus Plus toss, and being able to generate a Saturation Zone on command makes it safe for the Cutter to attack just about anything with goods odds for success. Even chopping the odds of a missile crit in half are really nice, and she's also a pretty good Suppressive Fire defender too.
That said, I've never reached for Patsy in a Cutter list, but I see the appeal.
I start thinking you're stretched too thin though, paying for Patsy and the Kamau Sniper and the Doc and the Machinist. I've never tried running the Cutter without both a ZC Sensor (Jammer's important for defense, and Sensor is really important.) Never tried running it without a ZC KHD also.
Very valid - what would you cut to make room for a ZC KHD? Would you ever cut the Kamau for a Clipper?
I know I know this is the VIRD thread... but what are people's thoughts on a Cutter in VIRD vs Vanilla?
Imho the Fireteam and AVA3 Helots aren't enough to make up for Vanilla's better Support with cheap screening, Specialists and affordable Sensor. Regular Sensor Minelayer to protect vs CC TF out of CC, Krakots to deter stuff with Berserk/Chainrifles and the odd Grenade C+/Superjump midfield roof counter and plain old Auxilia to provide warm bodies, Specialists, backup combatants and eyes for Discover rolls etc.
AVA1 Helot is still there if you want it as well.
With a Cutter list you lose a lot of the value as you're pretty much capped on 2 out of Crocs/ZCs/Kamau MSR. Might as well drop the Link and go for what Vanilla has to offer.
There's obviously the issue that you can't run a Varuna List one and Vanilla list 2 here, but if some of the tournament's missions require a TAG downsizing for the Zapper/HGL Squalo or go Vanilla altogether seems a sane choice.
Yeah, I'd consider it. Being able to heal multiple useful units using the Machinist is really helpful. That's a @daboarder specialty.
I do think that Vanilla's probably a better space for the Cutter. Minelayer Regulars and Auxilia are pretty hard to beat. I think the mines and Direct Template Weapons in particular help Vanilla over the top. Those are such rare commodities in Varuna, and I notice it every time I put them on the table.
With that in mind though, being able to catch someone off balance with a VIRD-centric Cutter list can have tremendous competitive value. The Cutter does do a really good job of shoring up VIRD's biggest weakness, namely a lack of strong centerpiece units capable of blasting a hole in the opposing team. A lot of opponents will commit critical errors during deployment or Turn 1 as they try to pivot to address the threat of a Cutter in a VIRD list. Vanilla doesn't quite have that shock factor... Everyone's expecting Joan, or a Swiss, or some flavor of super-solo choice, so the Cutter isn't a huge adjustment for them.
I played an ITS over the weekend, which managed to enforce a pretty simple rule-of-thumb I have for VIRD:
Don't leave home without minimum 3 Camo midfield options, not to mention at least 1 (and preferably more) fast, self-sufficient attack pieces like the Echo Bravo or Bulleteer.
I knew I was playing Looting & Sabotage (ugh) so ran the Core link + Patsy Haris, and I really dislike that configuration. I was obliged to use it for Acquisition too, and the lack of midfield resources and quick, stand-alone attack capability was just agonizing. I think Patsy is the bests of VIRD's rather weak options for L&S, and she can at least stand there and take a hit as Datatracker in Acquisition, but the entire assembly of Core + Haris just consumes an appalling amount of points. It almost feels like a poor simulacrum of NCA, with everything needing to footslog its slow and ponderous way up the table, but without NCA's great utility, or NCA's ability to keep an opponent off balance with Hidden Deployment.
Ufff! I understand exactly what you write @barakiel, and I agree on the need for at least 3 camos and a self-sufficient attack piece as we have discussed. For that same reason, there are two things that I have been thinking about to have more points available for more troops:
1. The viability of Patsy alone, taking advantage of his NCO plus the order of the datatracker to move with greater "speed" and the synergy that she could achieve with a ZC jammer and/or pacemaker, which is very expensive.
2. The real need for a trauma-doc plus a palbot. I understand that you like that configuration and with that you can keep Core alive for longer (sniper and/or HMG), but I think at the end in infinity everything dies, besides the chances of our trauma-doc save a wound are not the best. And when we play a HI or a Haris, we need space to add support pieces, but in my opinion, in troops that provide midfield control and/or quick and disposable attacks, rather than trying to recover our troops, it's just an approach but those 17 points of trauma-doc sometimes I think I need them for other things.
I thus managed to use Patsy's haris with Kamau HMG, 2 ZC and a bulleteer plus the core with kamau and fusiliers with 15 orders (13 + 2) and it was still uncomfortable. That's why now I prefer a Core and other self-sufficient attack piece.
Did you use a bulleteer ? how it turned out
Could I get some listbuilding tips for Countermeasures. It seems like its not a good scenario for VIRD but Im determined to play VIRD.
The other two scenarios are Show Of Force (quick side bar, pros and cons of the Cutter and Squalo) and Transmission Matrix.
I am in for some advice and tips for Countermeasures. We have that mission at our FLG's Infinity league and I am quite lost.
Countermeasures is indeed a challenge. Building a list that has strong coverage of all the Classifieds, while still functioning well as a VIRD list, is not an easy thing to do. There are going to be factors in how you build for it though... 3 game event, or 5 game? Which Round will it be played? etc.
Since Countermeasures gives you some flexibility for choosing/discarding your Classifieds, and since the bulk of your points come from simply doing more than your opponent, I tend to lean heavily on VIRD's ability to restrict movement and stop the enemy from getting where they want to go. This is a tough one for VIRD to score big on, unless your opponent presents zero challenge, or you get very fortunate with your Classified pulls.
The challenge with Show of Force is that your Cutter doesn't make a very good Datatracker. I still tend to favor the Cutter here... Hidden Deployment, marker state, TO Camo are simply too strong to ignore, in a mission where keeping a TAG alive and parking it in a hostile location is critical.
Assuming the other guy is likely to bring a TAG, your Kamau MSR has pretty good chances of stunning one if he wants to approach on that side of the field.
Meaning that inbetween that, Helots, Jammer and ARM8 you can protect a Squalo Zapper fairly well, who also can be Data Tracker, is more resilient to CC and leaves more points for other stuff than a Cutter (i.e. that MSR Kamau and Jammer ZC).
Just food for thought.
It's definitely a good mission for the Squalo Zapper. EM2 DTW is a brilliant tool.
I agree that the Squalo certainly has its advantages over the Cutter especially with that zapper. If you can land that zapper on a linked team, even if they are not HI, isolation is nasty.
VIRD somewhat needs to rely on its TAGs when it needs a heavy hitter, which is rather fitting for a Pano sectorial. We are the TAG faction after all.
Hey! I need some advice... I'll play Biotechvore for a tournament at the end of February, I don't like this mission, but also the tournament includes limited insertion as an extra which I think add more difficulty for VIRD ... I was thinking about the mission and I need: 1. Efficiency in the movement, either in the form of fireteams or units that move a lot, 2. Have some additional orders (NCO), 3. some profiles with good BTS (just in case), 4. Protect my troops so camouflage profiles or units that can attack without a line of fire are interesting or "resistance" because it will be an LI tournament. 5. specialists for the 3 classifieds.
So a Fireteam of Kamau or mixed fireteam sound nice (good BTS, and decent movement), but I'm not sure to use a Kamau.... Patsy could be useful for the extra order and their ability to accomplish classifieds, Montesa also could be interesting for his movement, Zulu Cobra always good, and probably Orcs could have an opportunity for his durability. But with all this in mind, I couldn't build a list that convinces me....
These are two lists....
biotech IL ──────────────────────────────────────────────────10 1 ORCO (Varuna Div.) (Multiterreno: Acuático/Selvático, Sigilo) Ametralladora / Pistola, Cuchillo. (2 | 45) PATSY GARNETT Subfusil, Granadas Nimbus Plus / Pistola, Cuchillo, Cargas-D. (0 | 37) KAMAU Lanzacohetes Pesado, Subfusil / Pistola, Cuchillo. (1.5 | 23) KAMAU (Visor Multiespectral N2) F. de Francotirador MULTI / Pistola, Cuchillo. (1.5 | 32) FUSILERO Sanitario (MediKit) Fusil Combi / Pistola, Cuchillo. (0 | 12) CABALLERO DE MONTESA Fusil MULTI, Chain-colt / Pistola, Arma CC DA. (0 | 42) ZULÚ-COBRA (Sensor) Fusil Combi, Jammer / Pistola de Asalto, Cuchillo. (0 | 29) ZULÚ-COBRA Hacker (Disp. de Hacker Asesino) Fusil Combi Breaker / Pistola, Cuchillo. (0 | 28) ZULÚ-COBRA Teniente (Sensor) Fusil Combi, Jammer / Pistola de Asalto, Cuchillo. (0 | 29) QUINN Fusil de Precisión Shock / Pistola, Cuchillo. (0 | 23) 5 CAP | 300 PuntosAbrir en Infinity Army
I could change Quinn for Bipandra (to have a real doc) for example to reform the link after the Sniper dies....
In this list I tried to put a haris of orcs, but I feel that there are too many points in them ....
ORCO (Varuna Div.) (Multiterreno: Acuático/Selvático, Sigilo) Ametralladora / Pistola, Cuchillo. (2 | 45)
KAMAU (Visor Multiespectral N2) F. de Francotirador MULTI / Pistola, Cuchillo. (1.5 | 32)
KAMAU Hacker (Disp. Hacker) Fusil Combi / Pistola, Cuchillo. (0.5 | 28)
BIPANDRA Fusil Combi, Nanopulser / Pistola, Cuchillo. (0 | 23)
FUSILERO Fusil Combi / Pistola, Cuchillo. (0 | 10)
ZULÚ-COBRA (Sensor) Fusil Combi, Jammer / Pistola de Asalto, Cuchillo. (0 | 29)
ZULÚ-COBRA Teniente (Sensor) Fusil Combi, Jammer / Pistola de Asalto, Cuchillo. (0 | 29)
PATSY GARNETT Subfusil, Granadas Nimbus Plus / Pistola, Cuchillo, Cargas-D. (0 | 37)
KAMAU Ametralladora / Pistola, Cuchillo. (1 | 28)
ORCO (Varuna Div.) (Fireteam: Haris, Multiterreno: Acuático/Selvático, Sigilo) Escopeta de Abordaje + 1 TinBot A (Deflector N1) / Pistola, Cuchillo. (1 | 38)
6 CAP | 299 Puntos
Abrir en Infinity Army
so do you have any advice or another point of view to play this mission in LI mode?
I'd go Cutter, Zulu Cobras, and Core link. That's a team that can lock down enemy unit powerfully, and can maneuver very effectively. Varuna does not do a super link team very well. Something like this:
ZC Jammer LT
Safe LT, 5 amazing defensive profiles, 3 units that can start a bit up the field to help order efficiency, and almost everything is either linked or able to participate in Coordinated. It has pretty good Classified Coverage too, since that's important for Biotechvore.
The Peacemaker is also extremely good in this mission, but is hard to use in Limited Insertion since it can't be Coordinated, and doesn't have a high chance of Deploying in a safe area. Still a great unit though.
Tactical Awareness on TAGs made Biotechvore a lot more manageable, hasn't it?
For sure, it's a really nice mission for VIRD to use its TAGs.
Thank you @barakiel for your answer... Using the Cutter was my first idea, considering the power of the TAG and the additional order, but I'm not so sure because in addition to the classic argument "don't pull all the eggs in one basket", the range of the multi HMG seems a bit risky for the mission, considering that the game will probably take place in a 16 x 48 section of the board ... I thought that medium, short-range weapons and direct templates should be used, something that VIRD doesn't have too much either.
I imagine that my rival will try to get as close as possible to the middle of the table, which leaves Cutter in the worst possible position, and in addition, he will not be able to fold back and without having direct templates or short-range weapons the TAG will be to exposed.
It would be necessary to flank with the TAG, but with so many buildings in the table, it can be difficult to find good shooting lines and have 115 pts. troop doing a suboptimal job, shooting at 0 or -3 and exposing too much, it seemed risky. I really want to try the Cutter (I've never used it) but I'm not sure in this mission.
For that reason I was thinking in a more "heavy fireteam" so... why do you think a "super fireteam" wouldn't work in Varuna?
Typically you'd be right... Putting a TAG in the killbox is dangerous. But in Limited Insertion Biotechvore, I think the game will mostly be decided in Turn 1, from longer ranges. If Turn 1 goes by and your opponent still had most of his Order Pool in play, VIRD probably didn't do what it should have done.
good afternoon fellow PanO's. old time player since 2010. quit a few years ago. just coming back into the swing of things with VIRD. is there a sample list to get back into the swing with standard mission (300pts.)? i use to play NeoTerra as refrence.