1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra PolĂ­tica de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

The use of remotes in HS armies

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by prophet of doom, Mar 31, 2018.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,043
    Likes Received:
    7,561
    @DaRedOne light tank, medium tank, or main battle tank? Main battle tank for forested terrain? Open terrain? Does the MBT's philosophy go for armour or countermeasures?
    It's hard to say, really, but lighter tanks are probably closer to Yan Huo in terms of resiliency, but with significantly higher speed, room for more soldiers and probably a much larger cannon.
     
  2. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    853
    Likes Received:
    1,784
    I was thinking an MBT, yeah. Not a light one.

    However I just realized trying to stat tanks in Infinity is an exercise in futility. So nevermind.
     
  3. Aldo

    Aldo Trying to detox from being a lorefag

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    927
    Likes Received:
    1,531
    Well, the old Halqa fluff:
    Halqa

    Halqa troops are a mechanized light infantry unit designated for advanced support. Halqa infantry know they are fortunate.

    They know that, unlike the Ghulam, they do not have to walk to the battlefield, since they have the Luzige (Locust), an armoured vehicle able to absorb almost any kind of impact. They also know that an armoured vehicle is an easy target for heavy enemy weapons. Once they get off the vehicle, they will have to take a strategic position on the battlefield, which will see enemy fire concentrate on them. However, they can deploy an impressive amount of firepower with their support weapons. The Halqa have the capacity to suppress any enemy in their line of fire. With this in mind, the Halqa know that even though Allah is merciful, luck always has two sides.


    Makes some interesting points about Infinity's warfare. Like the fact that Ghulams have to walk to the battlefield, or that the Halqa IFV is able to absorb almost any kind of impact.
     
    xagroth likes this.
  4. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2017
    Messages:
    2,457
    Likes Received:
    4,101
    I have always imagined that the real advantage of the TAG is its ability to move like a human. TAGs dodge on like, a 10-11. That's not great. But they can dodge! We're talking about multi-tonne armoured weapons platforms rolling out of the way of incoming fire, crouching, climbing, turning on a penny, vaulting stuff, peeping out of concealment to fire off shots before retreating instantly... tanks are pretty fast and manoeuvrable, but nothing like that. You don't have multiple crew to coordinate. They are in fact just big, fast, armoured regular soldiers who can therefore take a cavalry role.

    So you have something that is easier to deploy, hugely lighter, much more flexible especially in dense terrain, and critically, carries weapons capable of knocking out tanks and the like. So yeah they do have weak points, but the idea is that only light weapons actually touch them. They can shred a tank with their MULTI HMG and then drop into total cover before it lines up its 120mm main gun for a shot. They are difficult to damage with small arms and that works fine.

    Also I imagine the pressure point problem is mitigated by small localised artificial gravity fields. We know that they exist, they're the basis for a lot of tech in the setting.
     
    Abrilete and sarf like this.
  5. Shiwen

    Shiwen Commissar, Yu Jing General Political Department

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2017
    Messages:
    381
    Likes Received:
    1,091
    I always get confused about what has been specified in Infinity background, since one of the first RPGs/wargames I got into was Dream Pod 9's Heavy Gear, which went into depth about combined arms in a world with mecha, fitting them in tactically and strategically alongside armour, artillery, and infantry, each with strengths and weaknesses, specific utility and situational advantage... the lesson there was, pound for pound a tank can get better armour, a bigger gun, a lower profile, it will always be better than a mech in a straight up fight, But not every fight is on an open battlefield.

    I'd assumed the same sort of blend of infantry, TAGs, and armour is present in Infinity regular armies, and we just don't see the tanks because tanks are not clandestine special operations units, but maybe that's taking the lessons of one game and applying them to the other (which, if it isn't already the case, I'd argue is a good thing to do).

    As for the issue with ground pressure and weight, teseum is magic not physics, so its probably going to have to be the thing to explain TAGs not smashing through buildings and down into shallow drainage lines with each step. Maybe the magic here is some sort of subatomic interaction which rather than going for a monomolectular claw edge like that of coated antipode claws, you use the same magnetic principles to do the opposite... spread the weight over larger area than the physical footprint?
     
    Jassal2.0 and DaRedOne like this.
  6. Aspect Graviton

    Aspect Graviton Friendly Alien Overlord
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    621
    Likes Received:
    1,261
    While Aleph do have a drone as a standard troop, Aleph are by definition cutting edge special forces with limited man power and and with an AI that can oversee the drones effectively, Pano and YJ by comparison use drones as cavalry and actually have standing military forces.

    Human infantry however are autonomous, resistant to EM, resistant to hacking, are self maintaining, don't require a USB 12 compatible charger etc.

    On the subject of walking fighting vehicles I think infinity explains TAGs well, something that can be strategically redeployed and recovered quickly and has enhanced mobility. Infinity isn't a pitched battle setting it's spec ops. And if your gaming table is as open as the Iraqi desert you're doing it wrong.

    As to why we aren't using walkers today:
    They're slower, they'd require complex stabilisers that are only now really reaching a reliable stage of development, They'd probably be taller as well as slower producing a larger silhouette (and we all know that's worth a points reduction) and they'd be more expensive, other technical concerns would be sudden impact point loading of one actually trying to move quickly on whatever it was trying to move quickly across. Frankly at our current tech level they'd just be a liability.

    Will tanks go that way? Possibly, tanks are already practically obsolete, an Apache gun ship popping up over the tree line a couple of miles away; an infantryman with a laptop, 4G and drone coverage; a big enough pile of fertilizer buried in the road; the pot holes in a northern english industrial towns road system, all of them could do for an $8.2m tank. They're steadily going the way of the naval battleship, overwhelmed by more maneuverable weapon delivery systems that are cheaper with a longer range. Something that'd be harder to drop a bomb on and that can go down a side street in Baghdad but still turn away AK rounds would be more useful in the majority of situations.
     
    oldGregg likes this.
  7. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,643
    Likes Received:
    4,498
    Been saying so for some tieme.

    No, a Jotum is a TAG with extra armor. A tank has 2 advantages: more dakka and lower profile, with a more armoured front and less armoured sides/back. So yeah, maybe ARM 15 on front, 12 on sides (including up and down), 10 on back.
    Consider that a tank nowadays already carries an HMG, a big cannon, and missile launchers in some cases (smoke grenades in most).

    General Dynamics have been developing two types of remotes: a runner and a mule. They are faster than you think, and lack the main weakness of quadrupeds: too much energy to move (human design wins in resistance, we are like a nightmare able to outlast almost any terrestrial animal at long distances).
    I agree they are not for combat use, but it is an interesting thing to check anyway.
     
  8. Cry of the Wind

    Cry of the Wind Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    374
    I always thought that modern Infinity wars are fought by TAGs on the ground and aircraft/orbital assets for the rest. Have heavy armour? Orbital strike or drones kill it. TAGs avoid that with small profile and ability to take cover while also having decent ECM. I expect Remotes to be very common in regular armies with the human infantry supporting them and protecting the hackers who provide protection and offense.
     
    oldGregg likes this.
  9. itsuncertainwho

    itsuncertainwho Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2017
    Messages:
    194
    Likes Received:
    337
    There are mentions in the fluff somewhere of conventional armored units, tanks, etc. TAG's are the in-between heavy power armor and light armored vehicles. Infinity just focuses on the deniable shadow actions that governments like so much.
     
    Cry of the Wind likes this.
  10. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    5,771
    Likes Received:
    9,074
    Kids these days.

    From about 1970 up until 2010, the stereotypical SWAT truck was a Ford P700 Stepvan (or equivalent), painted police blue and packed full of all the extra toys and gear SWAT needs:
    [​IMG]
    This type of truck has over 6 tons of cargo capacity, and a max gross weight (truck+cargo) of 14,500lbs/7.25ton.


    Since 2010, those have been replaced by big ugly US Army surplus Mine-Resistant Ambush Protected trucks:
    [​IMG]
    This truck has about a 2.5ton cargo capacity, and weighs in at about 15 22.5 tons.



    I am talking about stuffing a 5-ton TAG inside one of those Ford P700 Stepvans and using that truck to covertly deliver said TAG to the operational area. TAG unloads from the truck slightly outside the shooting range, does it's thing, and then folds itself back into the back of the truck to drive away, with no-one the wiser. In theory.
     
    #70 Section9, Apr 6, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2018
  11. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2018
    Messages:
    1,159
    Likes Received:
    987
    Who are you calling a kid? Get the fuck out of here.

    And these trucks are still nothing like a standard freight truck. The transport implications are very different, so my statement stands.
     
  12. Andergdet

    Andergdet Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2018
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    16
    Wow, relax. It's obvious he meant it in a humorous, "look at me grumpy old gamer" way; I'm sure he didn't mean to offend you or anyone.
     
    Abrilete likes this.
  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,043
    Likes Received:
    7,561
    You're the one who keeps bringing up standard freight trucks, the others have so far been talking about reinforced trucks or SWAT trucks.
    Keep in mind the truck doesn't have to be civilian issue, it's sufficient it looks civilian enough.
     
  14. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2018
    Messages:
    1,159
    Likes Received:
    987
    I appreciate you clarifying someone else's comments. Makes me feel a lot better.
     
  15. alchahest

    alchahest Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2018
    Messages:
    36
    Likes Received:
    43
    how about: future trucks made out of stuff that is strong enough to rapidly transport TAGs in an urban environment but light enough to be easily disguised as a future freight truck?
     
  16. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2018
    Messages:
    1,159
    Likes Received:
    987
    Makes sense to me. As some brought up before, the less we try to definitively tie Infinity to reality, the more easily we may suspend our disbelief. Technical arguments about a fantasy world don't always stand up to critical analysis.
     
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,043
    Likes Received:
    7,561
    Glad you're feeling better, 'cause you came across as awfully grumpy and combative right there.
     
    oldGregg likes this.
  18. itsuncertainwho

    itsuncertainwho Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2017
    Messages:
    194
    Likes Received:
    337
    Or just get a dump truck and make the TAG lay down under a tarp. Problem solved.
     
    Deltervees and Jassal2.0 like this.
  19. Jassal2.0

    Jassal2.0 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Messages:
    29
    Likes Received:
    11
    Why not just assemble the TAG on site? Discretion is the better part of valor..
     
    Deltervees likes this.
  20. Shiwen

    Shiwen Commissar, Yu Jing General Political Department

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2017
    Messages:
    381
    Likes Received:
    1,091
    That'd explain why PanO Tech-Bees end up on the front lines in specops operations!
     
    Deltervees likes this.