That said, the basic line troopers of vanilla aleph are dakinis, which means atleast 1 faction has made base troopers rems. All the living models in non-steel have wip 14+ indicating they aren't remotes due to the required massive intelligence is desired.
Actually... There are some things to consider: - Our games don't represent wars, they represent small infiltration forces doing something key to the large scale conflict, and in these kinds of operations you'd imagine the prevalence of human minds that are (at least at the moment) more adaptable and flexible is something to be expected. - LHosts are a thing. Human soldiers don't die, they just respawn at the nearest cloning facility. I'm really surprised there's not a faction in the game that's extremely callous about this (which is really good, in my opinion.) - PanO does use drones. Assuming PanO's main fighting force in an actual war are TAGs, then their forces are the most automated of the human sphere, with ALEPH and Yu Jing not very far behind either.
Besides the Dakini all other Aleph units are basically just bio-Remotes too. They have a central back up and if their bodies die they just get uploaded into a new one, this bypasses the whole Remote Presence Hacking issue while giving all the other advantages of a Remote force (no risk of human life's, no training etc.). Of course it's not cheap so that's why so far only the elite faction does use it.
“Altered Carbon” does a great job of touching on this subject. ____ And yes, REMs and Lhosts are used extensively, but not on the scale of warm bodies - not yet, at least. We’ve already begun to see this trend in modern-day warfare and special operations. Just because infinity does not represent full-scale war does not mean it’s special operations do provide insight as to how such a war would play out.
Dakinis are, like all Aleph's troops, part of Aleph. Just dumb, basic parts, that have the bare minimum functions to run a body. In the end, however, those are little different (aside from the Paramedic capabilities) from other remotes, bulkier and slower and limited to laser-pointing (forward observer, if any, specialist option). Some drones to send as sacrificial pawns to distract are always a thing. Some mules to carry extra gear can be really useful. Sending some automated, floor-hugging disposable bunch of hardware to perform a basic part of the mission for which you cannot send a real trooper is a thing. The CA's Unidrons seem to be conscious to a degree, and are a variation of a basic shape/physiology the EI used to produce the S3 remotes, the Ikadrons and Xeo/Over-drones... (granted, no fluff affirmations here, but the design similarities are... eerie). If you want to see what a "death is cheap" and "suicide mass attack" looks like, I refer you to Log Horizon's Knights of Odisseus (a group of players trapped in a MMORPG where death is no escape who think dying enough times will release them... or are simply addicted to the resurrection feeling). Incidentally, Eclipse Phase has had SANity loss due to "resurrection" since the beginning, and you choice was: shock due to dying, shock due to "continuity loss" (your Cube was not recovered, so you were resleeved from a backup... kinda what happens to Aleph's characters when facing any enemy aside from CA in the Paradiso book's campaign rules), and then the extra fun part of "this is not my body"... Yeah, there is a reason it was advertised as an "call of Cthulhu game, without Cthulhu" (then it came the... things... made by the EI's BIG brothers...). Finally, bodies have a cost, and it's not just the Silk or the body itself, but Aleph's collaboration and the "opportunity cost" (who will you ress? That child who suffered an accident, of very affluent parents, or that military officer you need back in action ASAP?) Nah, I assume TAGs, aside from the Maghariba, are "light heavy weapons platforms". In "real" war, Infinity's choice of remotes would be bigger and nastier, thus justifying the Myrmidon's approach (why bother with armor, whatever you send to the frontlines will be better protected by not being seen!). The "big guns" would start at the Maghariba's size (which would be carrying big missiles in the frontlines, like the miniature does, but is not authorized to use them outside of battlezones) and the Jotum's ARM/BTS values. Economically speaking, Lhosts are as valuable as natural born bodies. However, considering how things seem to be presented to us, there is much more natural births than Lhost production. To an extent, parts can be extrapolated, but I agree it's not as simple as "take AVA and points, multiply by 10". Specially because, well, satellite imagining, orbital bombardment, and over-the-horizon engagements.
Well, economically speaking, Lhosts are more valuable than natural born bodies, due to a smaller supply. This is shown throughout the text CB has presented us with. You even brought up: This is a direct indicator of the massive value these Lhosts have, especially on the open market, as far as we've seen it. I mostly agree with your other points, especially the bit about TAGS. On that point though, CB has provided some definitive information. This is pulled directly from their website: On the Jotum "Symbol of PanOceania’s technological power, Jotums are, without a doubt, the most tough and resilient remote ironclads of the PanOceanian army." On the Seraph "Currently the Seraphs are the most visible element of any attack force of any Military Order, always on the front line of battle ... " This shows us that, though you and I both believe (and may be right), that TAGS are the light platforms, and we would see much bigger examples in "real war," these TAGs are the go-to when it comes to front line combat. I believe that, what we would actually see on the front line, is TAGS on a much larger numerical scale, alongside much larger support batteries. Even so, we must remember that most wars are no longer fought in the way of WWI and WWII engagements. Even the battles on Paradiso seem to be smaller in scale (not including the space/naval blockades). Adding to my belief in larger groups of TAGs taking to the battlefield: On the Maghariba: "This celebrated armored regiment produces the units that form the personal guard of the Hachib, Haqqislam’s Prime Minister. TAG technology is very expensive and, even though the Maghariba Guard Regiment is not the only one equipped with these single-man armored combat vehicles, it is the most prestigious ... The more advanced XPR-5 Akrep (“Scorpion”) has been retrofitted to improve its close combat capabilities, and includes a cutting-edge anti-ballistic defence system. Due to the scarcity of available units, High Command prefers not to risk them needlessly; Haqqislamite strategy books do not include massive armored charges. Instead, the Maghariba Guard acts as a heavy anvil against which the Ghulam Infantry crushes the enemy. This does not mean that Maghariba pilots are chosen for their cautiousness. In fact, they tend to be very cunning, using their inferior numbers as an advantage and clearing away enemies with an intelligent and precise display of their increased mobility and firepower." This suggests a few things. 1. A TAG regiment acts as a personal guard. Do they follow the Prime Minister like an escort? That would certainly be intimidating! 2. TAG tech is very expensive, and we see a scarcity of units. This scarcity may be in comparison to factions such as PanO, but regardless, there are enough to act as an "anvil" force in large-scale engagements, when they do occur. (Paradiso, Dawn). 3. "Haqqislamite military books do not include massive armored charges ... " but other faction strategies may do exactly this. Thank you for responding to my post (and others) so eloquently. I do not intend for this to be a post seen as shutting you down in any way. I merely find this discussion fascinating and would love to know more of your (and the community's) thoughts.
A bit more material on TAG use in warfare can be found in the description of the O-Yoroi: To make the most of their momentum on the attack, the O-Yoroi use the "advance of the locust" technique. When they find a focus of stiff enemy resistances, the initial O-Yoroi Kidobutai squads are deployed to make a fast assault on the adversary, while the other units bypass the enemy position to continue their advance. This technique was used with great success during the attack on the Stalpaert Industrial Complex, in the outskirts of Valkenswijk, Paradiso, during the NeoColonial Wars. While the first three O-Yoroi squads engaged in violent combat, building to building, the others moved around the complex and assaulted and took the Hildebrandt Bridge, opening a way into the inner city.
In "real wars" tanks, air superiority artillery ectr are present, remotes are neither so advanced or cheap enouph to dominate the battlefield flesh human has somehow through the ages managed to survive were stronger machines have not, they are also not that susceptible to massive EM strikes, or well prevent them by been there. There are numerous problems with a remotes army, cyber warfare is even more prominent and maintenance and spare parts even more prevalent, armies may be deemed inoperable for days if a security problem is found out and so on. Indeed TAGs are light vehicles slow moving and lightly armed, but really this is not an issue for the role they have in the battlefield they are easily transportable and can work as an oversized infantryman, making them ideal for urban and forested warfare as well as enclosed warfare like orbitals and space ships, essentially anywhere were an actual tank would have a huge issue be in and were most of the human sphere conflict is.
I like to imagine it has to do with the three turn limit as well. Stay with me. Our ops are black ops in-and-outs. Perhaps if the battle went longer forward observers would be able to have EMP cannon equipped satellites stop your non-organic troops without risking the civilian populace. I'm sure the insertion manner varies as well. It may be easy to drop REMs off in a dropship, but there's also scenarios where your troops blend into the civilian populace to find their equipment stashed after they've infiltrated customs. The REM would either have to be designed to compact or be constructed on site before the operation, then booted up by a hacker.
Emphasis mine. This is directly contradicted in several books, including the RPG releases. TAGs have been specifically designed to be more mobile than standard vehicles. They are usually more lightly armored, as you say, but the whole design of most (if not all) TAGs is predicated on victory through mobility. Especially in dense urban areas, where most powers engage in combat.
Oh they are mobile all right and fast, inside a city, or areas were obstacles are involved, no chance to go as fast as any wheel and track vehicle cross country without obstacles, I do not see TAGs going at lets say 70 KMH for a few hours, they do not need to though, not their operational parameters moreover since that can be packed and transported easier than a tank or any other light vehicle they do not need to be that fast crossing distances, they need to be fast in their operational environment. Just to clarify when I say slow moving I mean it at an operational capacity of crossing distances and relocating quickly in theatres of operation, not how they operate in their assigned battlefield role.
It's in the Campaign: Paradiso fluff that before the Combined Army showed up, Human militaries paid for full resurrection of any and all troops killed in combat. Remember, the Kempeitai were originally advertised as fragging the officers that unnecessarily wasted Japanese lives, most of whom didn't have Cubes. You need to understand the difference between tactical mobility and strategic mobility. To use a modern example: Abrams tanks are relatively highly mobile tactically. They're very fast, but their weight can cause problems with bridges and in cities with shallow sewer systems. But they are horribly immobile in a strategic sense. If Saddam had invaded Saudi Arabia in addition to Kuwait back in 1991, there wasn't a whole lot that the US could have done about it. The 82nd Airborne only had M551 Sheridan light tanks, and a C5 Galaxy can only move ONE Abrams per flight. The lesson of Desert Storm was that the successor to the Abrams/Bradley needed to be light enough to be carried in a C130 Hercules (18 tons!). That was the Future Combat System XM1202 Mounted Combat System. Same gun as the Abrams, on a chassis light enough to be air-dropped. Afghanistan and Iraq2 led to the decision that 18 tons was too light, at least for the tech we had at the time (and we were very close to fielding the FCS vehicles, they were in live-fire testing) A TAG is light enough that you could hide one inside a UPS truck, and carry 4 of them inside a C130. You can fit one TAG in most dropships, or V22 Osprey. That means you could put a TAG on the far side of the planet in about 30 minutes, if you didn't have one already smuggled into the city. Also, I assume that most TAGs are using their secondary/co-axial weapons in games of Infinity. It's one thing to find a pile of 7.62mmNATO shell casings someplace there was a "gang fight" (even links for an MG belt), but it's pretty dang obvious that the military showed up to play when you find a 25mm cannon casing!
All weapons except Ariadna are caseless with collateral damage prevention and deactivation for explosive warheads (probably they self detonate harmlessly?) Ariadna so far operate either in their planet or in Paradiso so they do not really care much about leaving evidence.
Could swear that many of the "Bourakalashnikov" Rifles of the Haqqislamite Armed Forces still shoot ol' fashioned Brass Cased Ammo. . After all they have the typical Avtomat Kalashnikova AK47 Arming Lever + Ejection Port that is typical of the weapon; what is the need for an Ejection Port if You have NOTHING to eject. . .?? Also many of the "Hi-Tech Guns" have semi-transparent Ammo Clips that shows nice cased ammo inside. . . It could be an "Artistic License" in the Dossiers and Illustrations, but there are ALL BOARDING / LIGHT Shotguns showing the ejection of "Plastic Body Hunting Slugs" that are so prevalent in Today R.W. I assume that is the same with the discussed idea that Multirifles have "Liquid Metal Bottles" instead of conventional Ammo Clips and are essentially "Rail-Guns" with Mass-Driver Coils shaping the Liquid Metal "Bullet Drop" in the desired shape and propelling it at Variable Speed as desired by the wanted effect (Hypersonic "Needles" for Armor Piercing, Slower and Flatter "Droplets" for Maximized Man-Stopper Effect). . . As for the issues of the Silenced Revolver of Knauf in the Outrage Manga, sometimes the Writers wants to convey the Idea of "Super Advanced Star Wars" technology, and sometimes the Artists stick to a more sensible, realistic "Cyberpunk Real Ballistics" and sometimes NOT. . .
The evidence about Military Vs "civilian" ammo is... well, Military ammo goes through buildings. No need to look for casings when you only need to look after the results. As for the self-detonation, that is paradoxically more likely on the missiles (specially the guided ones) than in the regular HMG a TAG can carry (even as "coaxial/auxiliary" weapons... an MG-42 like HMG leaves pretty damn big holes, and TAG's seem to carry bigger ones, now represented ingame with the +1dmg). Was trying to be politically correct here. Money-wise, yeah, Lhosts are more costly. Problem is... well, you can bet there is a black market of human bodies used to "resleeve" some people. There is always dark reasons for everything, and Ateks can have uses... and selling children has been part of human history for a long time, not to talk about direct slavery mafias. And this is more inspired from Altered Carbon than from my usual EP. Anyway, leaving the dark and red side, "as valuable as" was my attempt to point that the replacement rate of bodies via Lhost take as much effort, at least, as a natural born body taken to the mid-20's age. Badly written on my part, that's for sure. Well, I would take that with a grain of salt, as real life marketing meddling with in-universe data. You can't promote the TAGs as much if there are "better" yet bigger toys, look at WH40k and the Titans, people have been making, demanding and finally buying and playing with Titans for years now, and the scale demands plastic, imagine CB making a TAG 3-5 times as big as the Maghariba in metal... Hell, just twice would be an exercise in weightlifting to play with, not to mention some tables could suffer, and dropping it to the floor... uffff. I can understand, however, that the TAG are at the forefront of combat in a lot of situations, specially urban combat and terrains where threads are not practical. And that they should have lots of bigger guns, frankly, they are just not authorized to deploy strategical-level stuff in the missions we play in Infinity. This can (and I think it does) point to a lower casualty rate than we see now, not only against the CA but between the factions. The Tzechi compiler upped the stakes badly, the CA did so again... I'd say that Infinity-verse there are options not currently available for heavier troops (remember the Caskuda! Orbital drop was included in its deployment options... XD). However, I'm of the school of thought that lots of smaller units are strategically better than few bigger ones, for the force projecting in strategic scale, so 7 Xeodron > 3 Jotums (so to speak... it doesn't help that the Xeo can use a K1 combi that negates the Jotum's ARM...) because they can be at twice the positions. I have a problem with the TAG concept, however, of the "cool but impractical" variety, because of cover, but well... that's something else XD
Saying this assumes I don't know. If you actually read my comment, you'd see that I was arguing for the overall mobility of TAGs, as written in the provided literature. To assume I do not know the differences and importance of is rude and nonconstructive. Even with @psychoticstorm 's clarification of referring to "operational capacity ..." TAGs are still often described in provided literature incredibly fast - the next step in armored cavalry. To use real-world armored cavalry as an argument is somewhat unbased. Bipedal walkers are scientifically improbable for military engagement, as armoring them against modern weaponry would be nearly impossible. If any walkers were to see large-scale military use, they would most resemble the Maghariba Guard. Several pieces of Infinity literature already confirm the use of "all shapes" of TAGs, a large number of them being insect-like, due to the speed and mobility they bring to the battlefield. What evidence do you have for this? It would depend on the TAG and the truck. Most of the information we have on them describes multi-ton vehicles. I've worked for a logistics company in the past, things aren't this simple, and many of the UPS trucks cannot. A standard freight trailer can haul about 22 tons, which would logically load multiple TAGs, even including the added weight of spare parts and harnesses. This does not, however, provide reasonable transportation to a zone of operations. The smaller mail trucks would be limited to about 35 mph if they were loading even a small TAG, such as a gecko - which would have to be partially deconstructed to fit inside. I could go on all day about sound solutions for the transport of TAGs, many of which would be reasonably cheap. @xagroth I think you've made some great points. I'd like to thank everyone who has constructively added feedback to this thread. I do find most of your insight fascinating, but think we should continue to be respectful.
It doesn't speak to weight, but we've got an example of how TAGs are transported from factory to deployment from @Antenociti : the TAG crates. They're folded up, probably partially dismantled, but one could make a case for similar approaches to transporting active units. The closest thing I can think to guess at weights is that you can apparently move and position a porta-potty containing an S5 HI without attracting attention...
I would be more interested in how they can find cover outside of urban areas with more ease (closer to the ground, a turret that can be elevated, etc...). Also, the Maghariba distributes its weight over 6-8 points, and those legs can work (somehow, because of the angle) as threaded... We know from the Red Veil box that the Al Fasid was shipped inside of a portable toilet... and that was a fairly old semipowered armor for HI XD Anyway, we know that unless physics are wonkers in Inifinity, or the buildings are made to support tanks, TAGs have to be light enough to grab and climb without going through the face of the building, and walking over the top without visiting the basement... All of that over 2 points of contact with the ground, that goes down to 1 when walking. Actual battle tanks are moved around in specialized gondolas for both train and truck modes of transport. I'd say that as long as the weight does not exceed the trailer limits, you just sit/lie down the TAG and secure it, then maybe cover it to difficult the localization by the enemy. Or you just load it inside of a container, I think they fit diagonally following the scale rules, and I wouldn't put it past the background to tell us that most PanO TAGs are so slim so they fit in standard containers, while the Geckos are so wide because, as space platforms, they were not designed to be shipped whole (plus the armor was added later). The Jotum just travels naked XD. And yeah, no van delivery for the TAGs. I agree, however, that this is limited to places where a transport infrastructure has been established, and for the rough terrains the TAG just walks by itself.
