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The use of remotes in HS armies

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by prophet of doom, Mar 31, 2018.

  1. prophet of doom

    prophet of doom Well-Known Member

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    I always wondered why do humans fight at all? Why don't they let the remotes do the fighting? Remotes don't have real disadvantages over humans when it comes to the fighting in the Infinity universe. Not being able to dodge or synchronise with civilians is not strong enough a reason for humans to risk their lives in battle instead of letting a machine do the job.
     
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  2. Wolf

    Wolf https://watchwolf.net

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    Quick! Someone get him to shut up - he’s going to ruin it for all of us! :grin:
     
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  3. Scrap square

    Scrap square angry beta male

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    I mean, there is a difference between the rules and the semi realistic fiction. You still need humans to do certain job Ie communicating etc. Also it keeps it low sci fi.
     
  4. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Especially given the prevalence of the Sepsitor. They should just drown the CA in Sierras.

    The EI has it figured out - the Unidron (and other Batroids) and recyclable AI shells are the bulk of their force.
     
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  5. Wolf

    Wolf https://watchwolf.net

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    #5 Wolf, Mar 31, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2018
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  6. mothman

    mothman Well-Known Member

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    The public kept getting upset seeing cute robots dying alone on the battlefield, they insisted humans go and die with them so they wont be lonely.
     
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  7. Wolf

    Wolf https://watchwolf.net

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    Maybe the answer that, at least in the near future, the cyberpunk portrayal of humans who want to augment themselves fits with the warlike aspect of our human nature. So as long as humans could stay in the fight, there’d be some who’d want to?
     
  8. stevenart74

    stevenart74 Well-Known Member

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    Humans Elite Soldiers, especially Low-Tech Specialists without Powered Armour for Heavy Infantry, could NOT be hacked. . .

    You need JUST A SINGLE COMPETENT Hacker with stolen access codes and Your nice "Drone Battalion" is working FOR THE ENEMY (it is really the Plot of one of the last C.O.D. or Rainbow Six Videogames, where I.S.I.S Hackers totally CONVERT the stupidly full-automated U.S. Drone Army). . .

    The last reboot of the "Robocop" movies, while quite silly from various issues, address the Problems (and Advantages, too) of a totally Drone Military Police Force in some very smart manners. . .

    And Soldiers without Cubes could also not be Sepsitorized; I imagine that even the mighty, fearsome Avatar of the E.I. would not be so much of an hassle for Ariadnans of the Caledonian Mormaers or Heavy Kazak types armed with A.P. H.M.G.; they are Heavy Infantry that could NOT be hacked, could NOT be sepsitorized and could NOT care less about the "Superheavy T.A.G. Frame" as they pepper it with Teseum Bullets and then "hack" (as in "Hack-&-Slash" !!) the remains with their nice Teseum Blades. . .
     
  9. Wolf

    Wolf https://watchwolf.net

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    Stop, stop! I'm not listening! La, la, la-la-la! I'm not li-i-i-i-istening!
     
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  10. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    In Infinity you can hack anything wirelessly controlled. Because REMs have to be wirelessly controlled, they can be hacked. A Drone Army is therefore hilariously vulnerable. So using Drones sparingly with human troops is a good idea.
     
  11. prophet of doom

    prophet of doom Well-Known Member

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    Ok I get it. I would also be horribly bored just painting drones.
     
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  12. Wolf

    Wolf https://watchwolf.net

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    That’s good Prophet... very good. You can just ... step away from those realistic thoughts if you want to... easy does it now.

    That’s right - no-one needs to face reality today, do they? <sympathetic chuckle> no, that’s right - Uncle Gutier’s got it all under control...
     
  13. Pierzasty

    Pierzasty Null-Space Entity

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    Drones have anti-hacking safeguards you must crack, humans are easier to brainwash into doing stupid and potentially suicidal things for vague promises XD

    Seriously though, once you hit a certain tech level, it does make more sense to use drones as grunts and keep humans as officers overseeing squads of drones from armored command units, so you can match the quick reactions and efficiency of automated systems with the intuition and adaptation of a self-aware mind.
     
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  14. Flipswitch

    Flipswitch Sepsitorised by Intent
    Warcor

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    Because they're expensive for human forces to operate in such numbers would be my guess, especially considering the maintenance involved.
     
  15. Pierzasty

    Pierzasty Null-Space Entity

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    As the name suggests XD
     
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  16. McNamara

    McNamara Merc Rep

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    Aleph does it.
     
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  17. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Also Drones are at -3 to dodge so they die to chain rifle spam. Strategically inferior.
     
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  18. Shiwen

    Shiwen Commissar, Yu Jing General Political Department

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    There certainly seems to be an understanding of the potential for REM units to replace on-site soldiers... the remote presence TAGs for which PanOceania is famed, the changes in Yu Jing strategic doctrine outlined in the Yaoxie unit description and the blurb in the RPG book.

    AUTONOMOUS FORCES
    The most recent addition to Yu Jing doctrine is the addition of controlled and autonomous remote forces with the intent of minimizing Yu Jingese losses while leveraging technological advantage.

    That quote is very top-level, but it tells us that the incorporation of combat REMs is desireable to the StateEmpire, but is just beginning to happen on a scale large enough to have them revise the tactical and strategic handbook. Perhaps the StateEmpire is on the cutting edge here, leading the way in this conversion. Perhaps they are playing catch-up and PanO doctrine has already gone through this revision at an earlier point, but either way I think this tells us something: in-setting military planners are looking at the units and technology and asking the same question we are, 'why don't we just use REMs?', and this is a question they've only started working with relatively recently.

    To me that implies that the technology is new enough that the answer to @prophet of doom 's question is "They're moving there, but haven't reached the goal yet, they're still taking the first steps."

    I do think the reason WHY the Human Sphere isn't there comes down to a number of issues, most of which have already been touched on here: cost, rate of production, hacking vulnerability, limits of current technology, etc.

    - For cost, Remotes may be more expensive to build and maintain than recruiting and equipping/feeding a flesh-and-blood soldier.
    - For production, how quickly can remotes be built to supply and replace losses/regular attrition... I'm sure the Party would be glad to replace all Zuyong with Su Jian, but the transforming HI may just be very difficult to assemble at a quick enough rate to make that up even once you move them from experimental unit to full production.
    - For hacking vulnerability, Cubes are vulnerable to Sepistors and human minds to social engineering, but a REM is vulnerable to being reprogrammed or shut down and the fact there is a human controller on some level means the same manipulation techniques can be applied.
    - Technological limits can be seen on the tabletop in the fact REMs require a Hacker, suffer that Dodge penalty, cant rescue civilians, and can't go Prone... while the larger REM models make some of these penalties seem fitting just due to size and shape, they also apply to smaller REMs. A game mechanic for balance, perhaps, but it could also simply be a way of expressing that there are inherent limits to certain movements and functions across all the various designs of robotic body. The Hacker/TAG requirement likewise can be seen as requirement for a certain level of technological infrastructure, which is far from ubiquitous.

    Each of these issues is solvable. Economies of scale, technological development, protective infowar systems, etc. In games of Infinity, using mostly elite special operations soldiers, we get to see the cutting edge of technology applied in a narrow way, so the solutions do feel 'at our fingertips'. But for planetary defense armies, space frigate crews, and the like everything gets scaled up, the solutions become more demanding, more costly and slower to implement. In 50 years, or maybe in 15, I'd imagine REM armies will be the norm in the Human Sphere.

    The real question is if they will be new cutting-edge Dakini 7.0s, or an occupation force of Unidron Batroids ^_^.
     
    #18 Shiwen, Mar 31, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2018
  19. prophet of doom

    prophet of doom Well-Known Member

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    I hope that won't happen too soon, because I don't think I will enjoy Infinity that much if the armies are just composed of remotes.

    But the question is valid, we see that modern armies are relying more and more on drone strikes.
     
  20. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    Even with the tech, resources always play a crucial role in the deployment of armed forces. The resources are obviously available for large amounts of REMs, but they are likely to be worth much more hyper-powers than a warm body. Humans reproduce on a massive scale, creating a nearly endless supply. It is reasonable to assume augmented humans are cheaper than REMS.

    That said, the Human Sphere may one day see REMs that are both cheaper and more effective, so as to finally replace humans.