Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Knauf, Apr 8, 2018.
What about being able to use the Lt order without breaking a fireteam. Would that be too OP?
What faction with obvious Lts doesn't get much to make up for it?
It's certainly not Nomads. Sure we don't get any leadership benefits to make up for it: but we get a lot of other benefits. I'd argue that Onyx is the same: Lt issues are a feature, not a bug.
PanO is probably the 'worst' off because realistically it's Joan or a Fusi in Vanilla, Fusi in NCA, Joan in MO and Regular/Rao in ASA. PanO's issue is that it has no real reason to take active Lts. Honestly, if Rao had a CoC option, Singh had XO and Aquila Lts were a thing PanO's Lt options would be interesting.
Voronin is problematic only because the other Lt options for Vanilla Ariadna are really good. He could do with Guard being changed to actually be a survival enhancing trait, but otherwise he isn't a bad concept (he's just poorly executed).
Most of the problems with Lts could be fixed if LoL wasn't that punishing.
If it would only turn half your Regular Orders (rounded up) Irregular it would still be a big blow, but would make a cheap backfield Lt or anything else a real choice.
@inane.imp I don't even run Joan in MO anymore. She kind of makes the list a "win harder" thing, where you pay a lot of points to have her as a benefit and liability at the same time. My educated guess for Pano Lts would be >80% Fusilier/ACON Regular Lt in ITS. The rest is mostly Joan, with a few TAG Lts, Rao or the occasional ORC HMG, Santiago Spitfire or Aquila MR.
I like what JSA does to keep their Lt choice interesting. But cheap CoC plays a rather huge part in that.
I'd rather not give more incentive to run Machaon or Sukeul Lts.
Loss of LT is supposed to be punishing, especially if you over extended with one.
That said, I wouldn't mind more variety in loadouts. In Nomads it really was apparent which model was your Lt.
I think Interventors are a good example of 'Lt profiles done well' where paying for the Panda is optional and isn't required to get the Lt.
But things like that are conveniences not make or break the profile.
I just don't think the basic 10-14 points Lt. are fun or interesting while being the most common and probably best way to do it for most factions. It's strong enough that I pay 1 SWC for it like half the time even though Intruders are one of the best.
I don't disagree, I just think the 'boring' option is OK.
What I'd do instead is make the interesting options more interesting. Shave 0.5-1SWC from the cost of the PanO SWC Weapon Lts, add an Lt profile to a Wildcat Specialist (Engineer!) or the MB Hacker rather than the BSG, have Lt Vampires gain Shock Immunity etc etc
That is called Strategos 1. Any change would reduce the worth of strategos 1 characters like Hector.
I would like it if LoL was changed so that you'd have to make a WP roll for each model left and only those who fail turn irregular.
I agree with this too. Whenever I play Nomads and can't get an Interventor or Custodier Lt I feel so... annoyed taking a moderator or algualcil Lt. It just feels boring and not something that makes me excited to play with those specific pieces. But then again, I have a dislike for line infantry in general.
If this was implemented, the cost of high WIP on models would have to be increased a little, as those guys in haqq with WIP 14-15 would basically be veterans -1, while PanO would still suffer with the ruling, but not so much, as WIP 12 is still 60% chance of passing the roll.
I like how punishing the Lieutenant rules are. What I don't like is that we don't get enough good lieutenant profiles so that it becomes less of a no brainer choosing a Passive Lieutenant over an Agressive one.
it does seem that the faction who cares the least about lieutenants has to pay swc cost for every one of them
Some quick (hopefully helpful) input from a comparative newbie. I realize this is just a game, but the weird thing about Infinity Lieutenants (to me at least) is that they seem to perform two different (but related) functions for your team - those of Leader and "Operations Coordinator" (or perhaps "Satellite Uplink Tech," to reflect the fact that the player really is the team's OpsCo.) Being Team Leader accounts for the majority of the effects listed by the OP, but the additional OpsCo function is why Loss of Lieutenant is so bad. Trying to make sense of this as anything other than a (jumbled up) game mechanic leads to all sorts of further oddities - i.e. "Why is my Crane Agent taking orders from a Celestial Guard Lieutenant? Why is my OpsCo on the battlefield with us? Why doesn't my highly trained spec ops team automatically have a Chain of Command?" So in order to improve this state of affairs, I'd actually be interested in exploring splitting the functions rationally, which could allow for some interesting game effects - i.e. hacking attacks against your Uplink Tech, which might lead to losing a few orders for a turn, representing your comms being interfered with etc.
I'd really like to see the LTs do a bit more than act as a liability. The LT order is interesting, but I seldom see anybody use it, since losing the LT is so punishing.
Generally in other games taking an LT grants some sort of benefit or penalty that helps to differentiate between them and your other options. Examples include stat buffs, special deployment types, changes to AVA equivalents, etc. With Infinity this comes down to Strategos or Inspiring Leadership. It seems like there could be more LT skills, but if they are specific to a profile, it almost immediately identifies the LT in your list. There are also issues with balance if the bonus provided is list wide.
In most ganes, officers tend to give bonuses in a limited area. It doesn't work as well in Infinity since this would mean identifying the LT, but say it is optional and that models in ZoC of LT may substitute the LTs WIP for their own? Possibly limited to courage-related rolls to not upset ITS too much in disfavour of PanO.
The problem with Lts is that it's not you choosing your leader, your main man, your asset for the force. It's you choosing an objective for your opponent. Which feels a bit lame.
There seems to be 3 kinds of Lts:
Hidden Flag in capture the Flag scenario (cheerleader Lt).
Obvious Flag that gives you army wide bonuses but doesnt actually do anything on the battlefield apart for trying not to get killed (Saladin etc).
Extra order on already obnoxious kill machine, a winmore (Achilles Lt etc).
Couple loose ideas how to make Lts more engaged in battle apart from giving abstract army wide bonuses:
- stand your ground! - a trooper in LoF or Zoc of Lt can reroll guts roll once.
- it's army dammit! - impetous troopers in Lof or Zoc of Lt (at the beginning of a turn) count as non-impetous. Extremely impetous turn to impetous. (would need a point bump for x/impetous obviously)
- hodor! - after a trooper in ZoC or Lof of Lt loses the last wound, Lt can spend command token to give the trooper V:Dogged until end of a turn.
I came from warmachine where your leader was the lynchpin of your army, and infinity was weird at first. Both because the leader was mostly a liability and because it had little other effect in the game.
To be honest I wouldn't mind a bit more of an effect, but I think it's in a pretty good place. I must be weird, I almost never take a cheer leaders LT. My most common LT choices are swast, interventor, Intruders, Macheon, Hector, and Achilles. They all make very meaningful contributions to the game in different ways.
To an extent I feel like some of the effect is added by scenarios. Inteuders are phenomenal LTs in scenarios that interact with lt kills like hunting party and decapitation. Camo state with warbandish guards is the best there is. Whereas being expensive is an asset for missions like front line where an extra order moving a 70 point model can easily swing a zone turn 3. Or swast make an exceptional data tracker with their tools (stealth and a pulsar/red fury). Button pushing scenarios love Mac. Sure they don't a a list of extra LT powers, but I don't think that is necessary.
I'd be happy if they spread around a few extra ways to make good use of the extra LT order. Sensor Deva is a good example, wouldn't mind a FO/sensor grenzer LT.
Leadership and morale are always hard to model in a game. Infinity Lieutenants do give you some interesting tradeoffs between different categories (per @Rejnhard's post) and the playstyles they support, but they are definitely mostly a disadvantage.
I would like to point out that most of suggestions in this thread to give Lts some extra rules, special auras and distinctive loadouts mean you'll be running obvious Lt.
Just interpreting people's reactions and willingness to play along in this thread: there seems to be a low-key wish to have playing with an obvious and active LT be more rewarding.
Continuing on from the above and my original post, what I'd like to see is something like this:
Your LT gives you whatever Special Sklls they come with, your initial WIP roll and an LT order - the LT order (and only the LT order) can also be used to pay for "LT Special Skills" (along the lines of what Rejnhard suggested) which every LT gets. LoL only costs you two Regular orders per Combat Group (your choice of which troopers in each group to go Irregular) and also prevents you from spending Command Tokens until you appoint a new LT - this represents the initial confusion that results when your Team Leader in the field goes down.
Each team must secretly designate one of their troopers as their Satellite Uplink Tech - this doesn;t require a hacking device and just represents enhanced comms equipment. The Uplink equipment is however a piece of hackable comms gear. If the Uplink Tech goes to Null, is Isolated or the Uplink equipment is Disabled, the team's comms with their OpsCo (the player) are degraded and you again lose two Regular Orders per CG and the ability to spend Command Tokens until a new Uplink Tech is designated (due to "Loss of Communications" or LoC) - which represents the confusion resulting while the OpsCo hastily and remotely reconfiguries another trooper's comms equipment to perform the uplink. The Uplink Tech has to be on the table and can't be a marker.
LoL and LoC can stack, so if you lose both your LT and comms in the same turn, you'll be down four Regular orders per group as well as not being able to spend any Command Tokens - not a disaster, but it'll still hurt bad. Chain of Command can still be a skill, but it now allows the user to either immediately replace the LT or the Uplink Tech, not both.
Something like the above would (I think/hope) make your LT more of an asset on the battlefield/fun to play (while still making their loss hurt) and also add an interesting new dimension to the fight with the addition of the Uplink Tech mechanic.