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The Shock Ammo ruling is/was a mistake

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Hecaton, Mar 6, 2018.

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  1. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    If they've gone back and specifically clarified something, then regardless of whether someone on the outside might consider them to be wrong or not, it's rather clearly how they want the rule to work, so... and an author working in a professional relationship with an editor is a different kettle of fish than an already existing author and editor team taking on board the opinions of random readers from the Internet, especially (one more time) after they've already gone through the issue once, published it, and then clarified it...
     
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  2. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Again, "CO case" clearly shows that either they did something they didn't fully understand (or foresee the results), or they had changed their minds regarding how the rule should work.

    Either way FAQ can be misleading or actually not helping ("engaged" state says hello here), so actually requesting (in polite way) that rules "team" have a 2nd/3rd pass on something is not unreasonable thing.

    I'm really surprised that you even care to answer, due to as far I can say you are on the strong opinion that "CB said something, they must be right, stop discussing the issue".
     
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  3. cazboab

    cazboab Member (phrasing)

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    Not really, its just another thing explained in the wrong order.
    Viral is Double Trouble with a little bit of shock added.
    But not the specific effect of cancelling Dogged NWI and Spawn Embryo, it bypasses all those only by killing the trooper, in the same way the other ammo types that can do more than 1 wound per hit.

    Let's take Joan and Wallace as examples here since they illustrate the point well, in all examples we'll assume they're at full health:

    They both take 3 hits from normal ammo if Joan fails all 3 ARM rolls she'll be dead, if Wallace fails 2 or more he's also dead. NWI doesn't matter because they are not unconscious. Joan fails 2 and Wallace fails 1, they trigger NWI.
    They both take 3 hits from shock ammo if Joan fails all 3, dead, Wallace fails any single one of them and shock kills him, bye bye Billy bad ass. If Joan fails 2 she will be rendered unconscious and unable to use NWI because of the specific cancellation stated in shock ammo.
    They both take 3 viral hits, if Joan fails 3 or more BTS rolls then she will die. If Wallace fails any one of his 6 then he will die like Groundskeeper Willie in a Halloween special. If Joan fails 2 then she'll go NWI and keep fighting.

    In summary, shock and viral aren't the same regarding NWI, and Ariadna can't have nice things...

    Now I just need to think of a better way to ask for an increase in Wallace's survivability than asking CB to buff my Willy...
     
  4. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    You're saying that's how it is, and I agree that that's the interpretation that the FAQ presents, but I disagree that that was the intended meaning of the text.
     
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  5. cazboab

    cazboab Member (phrasing)

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    I can't speak for the original intention, but I do know that the red box in Viral is a bit redundant since it's basically just a reminder that dead things are dead and it doesn't matter why they're dead...

    Personally I'd delete the red box in Viral and remove the multi wound invulnerability from both Viral and Shock, but I'm not in charge ...
     
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  6. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    @cazboab
    Ah, I see. That post was about the FAQ ruling not being applied to Viral. My bad.
     
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  7. yuefei

    yuefei New Member

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    We're talking about FAQ 1.3 right?

    Sorry to be redundant, but I just want to clarify my understanding, the most recent FAQ basically makes it so that Shock ammo would make a 2+ wound NWI model go from being on it's last wound to going unconscious, instead of NWI activating, and instead of entering Death state.

    What I see in the rules is actually 2 different effects of shock: the bypassing of the Unconscious state, and the cancellation of Valor L2/L3. The latter is stated via redbox. The former effect explanation states that 2+ wound models are not affected by that specific effect, but makes no mention of the latter effect. So then as written, the original RAW does coincide with the most recent FAQ.

    To summarize: 2+ wound models being able to ignore Shock ammo ONLY applies to the first effect, which is the bypass of the Unconscious state. The second effect is applied globally, which is the cancellation of Valor L2/L3.

    Another way of saying that is that having 2+ Wounds does NOT grant "Immunity: Shock" (Shock Immunity presumably cancels BOTH effects of Shock entirely...)

    Sorry if the above was a tedious explanation. Personally, as an Aleph player, I don't like this, but I do kind of get it. Basically you have Shock ammo, which points-wise is cheap and readily available, being able to neutralize NWI which is relatively costly and Elite - this reminds me of a $200,000 Javelin missile system being able to take out a 4.3 million dollar M1 Abrams...

    What's odd is that CB seems to be back-door buffing smaller model count lists via Limited Insertion and such, but at the same time making Elite lists less viable with Shock > Valor. I think the easiest clarification at this point, assuming they want to, would be to say that Valor L2/L3 grants Immunity: Shock...
     
  8. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    That's pretty much the opposite of what they did in the FAQ though, and I'm sure buffing NWI / elite build wasn't their intention.
     
  9. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    "Shock Ammo has no effect against troops with more than 1 wound"

    Done, you're welcome CB, cheque in the post please.
     
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  10. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    So you don't even roll ARM on hit if you have 2W? :P
    Just so that we don't forget that Shock isn't some sort of trait that is slapped on top of Normal ammo.

    Writing rules for everyone is quite a task.

    Still, I wonder about two things:

    1) Why do you feel current Shock wording (outside of FAQ, I mean) doesn't fit to describe a desirable effect?
    2) Why do you think this is what CB wanted to express in their rules even though it's evident they wanted it to work in the (more or less) opposite way?
     
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  11. tox

    tox SorriBarai
    Warcor

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    In N2 any multi-wound model had Shock Immunity. It was part of the package.
    In N3 this immunity was dropped, so (even if i don't like it too) Shock has its effects...
     
  12. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Current Shock rule description is pretty clear on the fact its special effect doesn't work on 2W models, among others.
    Package has changed, but it's the same stuff.

    CB felt they have to intervene though.
     
  13. tox

    tox SorriBarai
    Warcor

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    Nope. It changed. A LOT.
    As you can read, 2+W models (and STR, FWIW) ignores only the straight-to-dead effect of Shock.
     
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  14. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Yes, and that's almost the same as having Shock Immunity (which is "treat Shock as Normal") would be? For the purpose of discussion, that would be the only difference between two types, after all.

    I mean, you weren't unironically suggesting "Shock ammo has no effect whatsoever, including ARM rolls and wound infliction"?
     
  15. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    STR is entirely unaffected by the FAQ. They treat Shock Ammo as Normal Ammo, they don't ignore certain parts of the Shock rule, they bypass it entirely and treat it as Normal Ammo with damage X.
     
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  16. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    The difference is that before, a HI with NWI could activate that NWI even after suffering that last wound from Shock ammo. Now, it cannot. The same can be said about Dogged troops like the Unidrons.
     
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  17. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    Again, NOPE!
    Shock Immunity treats Shock Ammos as normal.

    Please, read again the Shock Ammo rules.
    1) ARM roll
    2) If 1W model, go straight to dead
    2.1) 2+W ignore this particular effect
    3) no use of Dogged or NWI.

    It is A F-LOT of difference, and it was the stress pointed by CB with the FAQ.
     
  18. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Except, they can.
     
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  19. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Yup, he picked one of the very few Dogged troops who can (Rosie and Greys being another two); if he'd said Jaguars he'd have been right though. :)
     
  20. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    I should have said Greys, yeah. Having immunity to shock due to having the skill (like moderators) or another encompassing skill is simple not good for the example. That being said, while there are 2 wound + NWI troops (and one 2 STR+NWI, the Su Jian), I can't remember a single troop with 2 wounds and Dogged :S