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The Shock Ammo ruling is/was a mistake

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Hecaton, Mar 6, 2018.

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  1. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    The update to the FAQ about Shock ammo is based on a misinterpretation of what the red box in the Shock ammo means. It says:

    Some folks interpreted that to mean that models that would be brought to the unconscious state by a hit from Shock ammo, but who aren't killed by it (mostly models with 2+ wounds) cannot use Dogged, NWI, SpawnEmbryo, etc. Let's compare it to the same red box from Viral ammunition:

    This one is a much better wording of the same thing, that can't be misinterpreted as was done. This causes pretty severe balance issues considering the ubiquitous nature of Shock ammo, and the already tenuous position of otherwise durable models in the game. Who do we have to talk to to get this correct? @HellLois ? Anyone?
     
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  2. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    I would love this uncomfortable interaction to be reversed.
     
  3. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    CB answered it the way they want it and designed it to be played, why would they change it?
     
  4. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    My understanding is that it was not playtested under this ruling for N3. It's not a matter of "working as designed/intended."
     
  5. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect
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    I don't like the ruling either. I want to get that out of the way first.

    But I think it's very questionable when you assert that your interpretation of a rule is more correct than an official statement by the company that created the game.
     
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  6. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I wouldn't except that I can't imagine any other reason for it being the way it is than a bungling of the wording/interpretation of these two boxes, which are meant to be identical. And if people don't bring it up... nobody's going to act on it.
     
  7. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    The ruling does beg the question of who made it. If only because it strikes of a very GW esque ruling that is typically one not made by the core designers.

    Not saying thats the case mind but i can see why people would like a little extra confirmation that this is indeed something gutier wants.
     
  8. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Is Gutier the head rules guy? I thought he was just the head honcho for the story.

    In any case, this smacks of a "cargo cult" ruling - a ruling made without any knowledge of why the original rule was written that way in the first place.
     
  9. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    They issued an FAQ. That’s clarifying how they want the rule to work, so, how they intended for it to work.
     
  10. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Considering the state of the written rules, I think the "cargo cult" explanation holds more water.
     
  11. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Considering Interruptor does all of the story, rules, and FAQs... yeah... might want to try again...
     
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  12. korva

    korva Member

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    Wow, this is dumb. Shock doesn't affect models with 2 wounds, except it totally does now.

    Either they need to remove the part of the rules that say that shock ammo does not affect multi-wound models, or they need to change it back.
     
  13. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    Stage 3: bargaining.
     
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  14. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    That would be the point of the FAQ, to clarify how Shock affects Valor on 2W models...
     
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  15. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    Because people who make games can still make mistakes... One should be carful not to get caught in a cult of personality, especially your own.
    Only a very full of themselves/narcissistic author for example would fail to respect the opinion (even if they in the end decide against) of an editor.

    The rule is... odd. Asking for a second or even a 3rd pass is fair.
     
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  16. cazboab

    cazboab Member (phrasing)

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    On the one hand this doesn't work like how I'd have done it: In my head, anything that shock ammo makes unconscious(or an equivalent state for Shasvastii etc) should just die. Regardless of how many wounds it had to begin with, if you go from 1w to 0w it's Goodnight Irene. Dogged? Nope you're dead now not unconscious. NWI? Dead. Spawn Embryo? Dead.
    Simple and consistent.
    For whatever reason its been decided that if you ever had more than 1 wound you can't die from being made unconscious by shock and that's that no matter how much I disagree.

    However that said, there is no comparison to Viral. Viral is two rolls inflicting two potential wounds just like Double Action or two separate hits, the red box is a reminder(somewhat superfluous to me) that should you fail both saves and are dead you can't use those skills to not be dead. Why that red box isn't included in T2, DA, DT, EXP and viral singled out I don't know, but the effect for them all with regards to Dogged, NWI and Spawn Embryo is the same: if you're dead you can't use them, because they all affect the Unconscious state.

    Shock inflicts one wound with additional effects, the problem is the order in which its effects are explained makes it seem contradictory because the natural way of applying them is in the order the skill mentions them, when in fact they are applied separately and simultaneously, so while a 2 wound trooper is immune to the unconscious=dead effect, the cancellation of Dogged, NWI and Spawn Embryo is a separate effect, so they can't use those skills even if they are a multi wound model.
     
  17. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I think that is a misinterpretation. They weren't intended to be "separate effects." It also requires twisting language up in knots to justify why it doesn't ignore the NWI on Su Jians etc.
     
  18. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, Su Jians take STR dam from Shock Ammo? I thought it was converted to be Normal IAW the rules of Shock Immunity. And how Normal ammo affects a trooper with NWI is clear.

    Whereas Asura aren't Shock Immune so still get affected by Shock and therefore can't make use of NWI.

    This is literally how I've ALWAYS read the rules.
     
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  19. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    So you say that CB is never wrong (which is interesting concept when you recall the whole mess with "coordinated orders" and regular order being used from different combat group).
     
  20. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Actually, Viral is not Double Trouble.
    Aside from red box, there are a lot of words in Viral description that state it, in fact, has shock-like effects:

    "If the target has a Wounds Attribute of 1 on his profile and fails a BTS Roll against Viral Special Ammunition, then he enters the Dead state directly, bypassing the Unconscious state. This specific special effect does not apply to:
    • Units whose Wounds Attribute is higher than 1 on their profile (such as Heavy Infantry).
    • Troopers who, during the course of the game, increased their Wounds Attribute above 1.
    • Units with a Structure (STR) Attribute instead of a Wounds Attribute, such as Remotes, TAGs, Vehicles, etc.
    • Units possessing more than one Troop Profile whose cumulative Wounds Attribute is greater than one (for example, units with Transmutation)."
    T2, DA, DT, EXP etc. aren't included because there is no such effect in their description.

    It would be nice if instead of all this mess with ammo types we would have had all that stuff included into weapon profiles and adding special effects like the aforementioned one into traits.