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The power level of Vanilla YJ post Uprising

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Zewrath, Jun 11, 2018.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Szalamandra, Riot Grrls (5-manned) with BSG, MRifle, and Blitzen, Bolts (5 manned) with MSR, Nisse (5 manned hypothetical) with MSR, and Croc Men on Suppression Fire.
    Against the Nisses, the Crane needed a BSG to reach high percentages. Against the Croc Man, the Crane need smoke and a sword (unsurprisingly).
     
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  2. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor
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    Ah, that's all situations where I'd happily sacrifice a CG to get the odds.
     
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  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    There's so many factors which would decide if I was willing to sacrifice the CG, it's hard to enumerate, but in a lot of situations the comparative rrolls are so close between shooting and meleeing that I'd rather spend two orders on good odds than three orders overextending.
     
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  4. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor
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    Against the Riot Grrls, you're looking at about four Orders to take down one Grrl (assuming both sides are using a BSG and are in cover). If you're within 4", CC with just the Crane is going to take roughly two and a bit Orders as they'll be on relatively crappy CC Attack/Dodge options after the first Order, without any bonuses from their Fireteam.

    Obviously this depends on positioning so that you can get there without being shot by other troopers, but if you can (or use the linked Smoke LGL that laid down smoke on the way), CC is more Order-efficient than shooting. Excluding templates catching multiple targets, obviously.
     
  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    My own experience also says that "to CC you need to move in the wrong direction". Maybe that's a meta thing where my meta is really shy on getting close to the objectives.
     
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  6. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    I only play her for theme games, but they're tons of fun for that. A narrative event where ABH-heavy ISS is used to portray generic corporate hitmen would be a lot of fun. Maybe play it against a force of Ikari biker/gangster scum types, even.

    Thanks for running those stats and sharing them! That really helps me understand the options a lot better. I guess if the CC assault also moves the group towards an objective or defensible position it would be worth it, but if it sticks your neck out and then requires retreat after, definitely not.
     
  7. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

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    In a recent (Treason) game, I got completly crushed by a combination of Pretas and the Speculo. While I fully admit that this has much to do with one of my worst deployments yet, it shows the ARO weakness quite well. As well as the impact a possible unit profile has on the game.

    [​IMG] Annihilation Treason vs CA
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 [​IMG]4
    [​IMG] TIGER SOLDIER Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 32)
    [​IMG] RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1 | 20)
    [​IMG] CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13)
    [​IMG] KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    [​IMG] KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    [​IMG] KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    [​IMG] KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    [​IMG] DÀOFĚI HMG / Pistol, Shock CCW. (2 | 57)
    [​IMG] KǍNRÈN Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, MadTraps / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 28)
    [​IMG] ZHANSHI Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5 [​IMG]2 [​IMG]2
    [​IMG] SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5)
    [​IMG] SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5)
    [​IMG] WÈIBĪNG Yaókòng Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16)
    [​IMG] HÙSÒNG Yaókòng HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    [​IMG] ZHANSHI Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 19)
    [​IMG] MECH-ENGINEER Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    [​IMG] YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    [​IMG] GŬILÁNG Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 31)

    7 SWC | 300 Points

    With the threat of the Speculo (as an example of a possible unit profile), I had to deploy the Kanrèn packed up with the Zhanshi Lieutenant as 4 Zhanshis, so I could not deploy him in the midfield as an ARO threat. The Monks and Kuang Shi did their job very well in killing the Speculo and the Pretas with their chain rifle, but not without me loosing my other models left and right due to the chain rifle template of the Pretas in a packed deployment zone. So I could not outrange the Pretas before they were close.
    The only viable ARO piece in this list, the TR bot, was stupidly deployed by me because I had the fear of loosing it to a possible TO trooper. This was a big mistake that let the Pretas run rampant.
    Finally, my opponent could roam freely with his Sphinx without the fear of the monofilament sword.

    Please bear in mind that I did many mistakes that led to a devastation loss, so no excuses here, just an example. And finally, I', sure we'll get some fine replacements once the IA drops.
     
  8. eciu

    eciu bloody vanilla

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    Like those 2 almost "free" orders you get on shaolin for what, 6 pts ?
     
  9. eciu

    eciu bloody vanilla

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    True, but if there's a Sin-Eater somewhere you always have an option (might not be the greatest) to just smoke him or smoke and engage CC.

    Not to mention Triangulated Fire on MR is probably hitting Sin-Eater/QDrone better than a full link of knights.


    I'm not saying what is being discussed here is not an issue, but if it is then MO suffers from it twinfold ;/
     
  10. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    I'm sincerely not trying to be a dick here but are you honestly suggesting that you have a better chance hitting a Sin Eater with 3 shots of 10's to hit, than you would with 5 shots on 14's? Because if you are then I honestly don't even know how to respond to that..
     
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  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I've only ever had someone be within 2-almost-free-orders of a Shaolin once so far. That Shaolin killed 1 Caledonian Volunteer while getting gunned down by the other volunteers' ARO. Not as impressive as what his fellow monk accomplished using Chain Rifle.

    This also has to do with deployment and list building. Shaolin is vanillas single-handedly most reliable source of smoke to complement the murderous Hsien or Rui Shi, meaning their value in less aggressive positions is much higher than a typical Warband would be, and as such they won't necessarily be used as aggressively.
    Terms and conditions apply.

    If there's a Sin-Eater somewhere the Nomad should probably have tried to cake-slice the soft underbelly of the Crane link - the Celestial Guard that's carrying the smoke grenades. What's good for the goose is good for the gander and that's bread crumbs, a.k.a. Celestial Guards. Die Morlock Goose-e loves Celestial Bread.

    No, MO doesn't suffer it twinfold. With lower investment in CC, the incentive to use CC is also lower. It sucks for the Knights that aren't designed with decent guns, or who doesn't get discounts on the cheap through Fury, but for the other Knights not so much - particularly Hospitaller who does a tripple-whammy of both having good guns, good fireteams, and the fake drawback of Fury to completely negate the cost of CC...

    Oh, and Triangulated Fire for a Crane in a link isn't really a thing against most targets. X-Visor and the fireteam bonuses will make shooting directly better. At extreme range (32-42"), an MR Crane in a fireteam benefits from using Triangulated Fire against a Sin-Eater, which is better than a Knight or a directly-shooting Crane. Neither should be engaging the Sin-Eater at ranges over 16" if they can avoid it, however. Crane using Triangulated Fire at extreme range does benefit from Nimbus quite a bit, but odds are still a bit on the crappy end both in terms of risk and in terms of wasting orders, however.
    In either situation, a Hospitaller HMG is best profile.
     
  12. eciu

    eciu bloody vanilla

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    Yep, brainfart on my part, was thinking about single knight, wrote about whole link. My bad.
     
  13. eciu

    eciu bloody vanilla

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    The only not CC investment option in MO I can think about are Fusiliers and Drones, everything else pays somehow for CC (even Order Sergeants).
    Yea, Hospitallers are their own great league (as much as I agree that Fury nullified by link teams is a bad game mechanic, MO HI teams desperatly need that just to be playable).
     
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Lower, @eciu , lower. Not non-existant. Many of those knights can fit more than just a light shotgun in points difference between their CC ability and a Crane's.
     
  15. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    Hang on a sec.

    There isn't that much distance between the CC investment of:

    [​IMG] KNIGHT HOSPITALLER MULTI Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 37)

    CC21 + MA2

    vs

    [​IMG] CRANE IMPERIAL AGENT (Sensor, X Visor) MULTI Rifle, 2 Nanopulsers / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 52)

    CC22 + MA3 + Kinematika 2

    There's probably only 4-6 pts of additional spend on CC there, and the +1 CC and +1 MA are both SUPER good improvements to the capability of the unit in CC, as is the DA CCW.

    A Crane is a different kind of investment from a Hospitaller, but that's not because of their CC.

    And the CC on a Crane isn't a great example of "CC Bloat", because it's well past the point where it becomes useful.
     
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  16. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    While that's a huge improvement over what we had in ISS for Paradiso (I think there were a total of two army lists...), that's really terrible for vanilla.


    Yeah, my standard YJ list is now usually down one helperbot, so I have to decide who gets the helperbot, the doc or the engineer.


    Yeah, I think the only HI I've ever planned to stab someone has been the DoHara/DoTanko (ok, and Shikami).


    *gigglesnort*
     
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    The point isn't that Knights are pushovers in CC, but that they invest less in it compared to Cranes or Domaru, and have thus spent less points into unused abilities if they don't make it into CC. Also, that's a Hospitaller, probably the best mixed martial arts unit in the game, or at least a contender for the best optimised unit.

    I'm also not saying that a Crane's CC is weak, I'm saying I am unconvinced that the price point is fair* because the range in which it can be used is so short. A BS Attack analogy would be that I'm not saying Heavy Shotguns are useless, I'm saying they shouldn't be priced the same as a Sniper Rifle (which they aren't, because their range is much more limited). Similarly, a Crane's CC ability is strong, but the short range means it should probably not be as costly as a Heavy Shotgun (which it kind of is) particularly since it's not that much stronger than a Heavy Shotgun.
    It's these extra points that I'm calling bloating.

    * Regardless of unit or faction, though marker state (particularly IMP-1 or TO) is such an incredible ability multiplier to CC units.
     
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  18. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    Why would you bring up Domaru?

    They are CC specialists, built around using CC as their primary attack mode.

    ...

    Going back to the Crane, you can argue that they are too expensive but the vast bulk of their cost isn't coming from CC. And given their CC capabilities there are lots of situations where they are actually better off in CC rather than shooting. Especially once they are within 8".

    The Crane is a terrible example to argue "bloat" with. Because they've come out the far side and well into "CC is useful".
     
  19. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    What would be good examples of CC bloat then?
     
  20. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
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    Pheasant.