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The lonely Shang Ji

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Space Ranger, Apr 24, 2019.

  1. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I don’t necessarily think it’s all about the troop itself but also about the support. YJ just doesn’t have good support. What it does have is sometimes even situational.

    Doctors
    The one of the things (out of many) that pissed me off about the Uprising was losing the Tokusetsu. YJ currently has in all Sectorals AVA 1 Doctor! When you are playing a game in which points on the board matter, this is a big deal! In tournaments that count Victory Points, this is a big deal! So what they have is medics? PH is already on average lower than WIP and then you give an it a -3 and no re-rolls for a cube?!!!

    For example, Hollow Men have WIP 15 Engineers to bring them back, Haqq Jannisaries/Asawira have WIP 17 Doctor in their link and then can have a lot of cheap ones too! Both of those troops are good for them in any situation. Whereas a Zuyong/Shang Ji can have an Engineer/KHD that might never use that skill the whole game. If you take one of the Remotes you may use the Engineer for that one thing. Ikari has more doctors to bring back Wu Ming that YJ does! I feel they made a huge mistake of not giving the Haidao a Doctor option.

    Hacking
    KHD and AHD are great! If you are going up against something hackable. Waste of points if not. All of our other hackers are mediocre at best. The good ones are very expensive. Nomads have the best hacking support of course, Haqq at least has many cheap ones with WIP 14.

    Other support
    ISS at least has some smoke for the Wu Ming but it will never be a lot. Vanilla has a bit more. But Dashat, Ikari, Nomads, Combined, even Haqq has more and probably more reliable.
     
    Usashi likes this.
  2. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

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    If only there were some way of spreading the doctor's presence through some kind of remote helper...

    In those fireteams, that doctor can't take a servant, so their sphere of influence is more limited.
     
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  3. Mc_Clane

    Mc_Clane Zhànzhēng bùzhǎng
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    I've just made tipical fireteams that are frecuently seen on the table or on the forum listbuilding. Just like this one

    [​IMG]5
    TAI SHENG Mk12, Chain-colt, Stun Grenades / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 45)
    ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Duo, Tactical Awareness) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1.5 | 38)
    ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Haris, Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 34)
    HǍIDÀO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 26)
    ZÚYǑNG Boarding Shotgun / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 26)

    2 SWC | 169 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    not so cheap right? And it's not the more expensive I've found. Try to fit in a Shangji, or add up more TA...


    I don't feel hospitaliers or riots are like cheating. They're good, they perform well, and are loved by their players without being an obstacle during listbuilding, not like Zuyongs

    I think TA is a twisted mechanic. I brings extra momentum, and somehow an orderpool resilience at the cost of narrowing the natural options of the fireteam and building a "house of cards" mechanic. Due to the concentration of orders the death of TA or NCO troops is like loosing the double your troops. I'm sick of making the ol'same invincible lists time and time again and falling in the same shortcomings. It's a problem build on top of TA and NCO that makes near imposible to fit Invincible troops on the same list

    It's simple, without TA what does the zuyong fireteam provide on comparison? what's it's signature move? can the rest of the list make up without that tool? The answer is No. the high cost of the Invincible troops and the 10 men cap makes listbuilding like hell and you'll never get satisfied enough with a list. It'll always lack something

    A HI coreteam needs to be used aggressively, and in a list so dependent on such light and vanilla key troops, a doctor is a must. (Even a non E/M-able engineer might be near mandatory depending on the adversary). Resilence in a fireteam improves a lot with a doctor. Is as simple as that. This has proven to be truth and It's backed by CBs changes on HI Fireteams. Since HSN2 and since macaon, a lot of fireteams earned a linkable doctor and became more interesting. Now I can't see an expensive fireteam of HIs without one.

    If automedikit aims to be the CB solution to our cheap fireteam, at least make it right. don't make it an strange thing that doesn't fit on any list, Make the Nº2 a natural choosing, don´t make Automedikit so expensive that take's out The cheap characteristic of the fireteam if you bring a couple, and of course don't take out the TA characteristic (if the want to keep it)
     
    #43 Mc_Clane, May 8, 2019
    Last edited: May 8, 2019
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    You made a fireteam that's less than 10 points more expensive than the equivalently equipped Riot Grrl one, but fitting 2 to 4 extra orders in there and at a surprisingly low SWC/CAP cost... I don't see the issue with Zuyong compared to other HI.

    Tai Sheng and Shang-Ji are luxuries that other HI paintrains simply so not have.

    By the by, most of the stuff on your list compares to the Shang-Ji Core in terms of protection and rangebands.
     
  5. Mc_Clane

    Mc_Clane Zhànzhēng bùzhǎng
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    [​IMG]5
    RIOT GRRL Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 34)
    RIOT GRRL MULTI Rifle, Stun Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 32)
    RIOT GRRL Boarding Shotgun, Stun Grenades + TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)
    RIOT GRRL (Specialist Operative) Combi Rifle, Blitzen, Stun Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)
    RIOT GRRL Combi Rifle, Blitzen, Stun Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 29)

    2 SWC | 155 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
    • The riot One is 12-14 points cheaper depending on how to substitute taisheng (multi or spitfire)
    • The riot one has ~2 blitzens vs 1 HMG in terms of long range
    • The riot one has better BTS perks due to the MSV1
    • The riot one has better Grenade launching skills
    • The riot one has better survival skills with dodge on 16s
    • The zuyong has more 2-4 extra orders (requires another slot on the list to get the 4)
    • The zuyong has a pretty nasty Hacking tool
    Plus, riot's are in a far cheaper sectorial. That alows the player some room to fit interesting options on the list.

    My point (or my opinion) is: Invincible doesn't have room for such overcosts if durability is not included on the pack. If you loose your 3 key pieces (daoying or taisheng, and TA zuyongs), the list tends to fall apart. We're talking of 7 orders on 3 troops that need to advance on turn 1 (becoming more accesible/vulnerable). And they can be taken out on a single heavy flametrower or deal with by a E/M grenade or zapper

    Of course you can go without TA and NCO to drop down to Riot costs... but that's quite a loss on pusshing force without real advantages towards playability

    I think the troop needs an overview over costs. specially Automedikit, nº2 and taisheng

    (Of course that's without knowing krit, or the future changes of meta/rules)

    An I'll add a change on haidaos to be MIs. That sole change makes the engineer a better protective piece inside a HI linkteam. being able to recover inmovilized allies without the risk of being fully E/M-ed
     
    #45 Mc_Clane, May 8, 2019
    Last edited: May 8, 2019
  6. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    A bit snarky? Really?

    Tell that to the Janissary doctor that brought every single member of his team back up after i spent a lot of time putting them down. Mainly because he was right there with them instead of a helper bot all the way in the back. Oh and taking a wound him self to do all that. What sphere of influence? That sphere was right in his hands! The only use I've had for helper bots is to jump in mines.
     
  7. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I think you're missing the point. Doctors in Fireteams are extremely valuable. G:Servants don't follow link teams as they move. If you have casualties in the middle of the table even with a servant around it's still gonna cost 2-3 orders to get it to revive anything and that's assuming you don't need to assist it getting past firelanes. Shit like the Hospitaller Doctor, Machaon, Haqq link doctors don't have that issue they can order efficiently rebuild their link if necessary.

    StarCo's Brigada link was actually really good compared to the pre-buff plain CJC Brigada link, because StarCo could stick a doctor in theirs.
     
  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I routinely lose Tai Sheng so I don't know whether I agree the list falls apart, precisely... I get the distinct feeling that you're comparing apples and oranges here because you mention how lists fall apart if you lose the Daoying, but have you looked at how well Baukinin can hide LTs? Sure, the IA LT is obvious, but it's in a Marker state with fairly decent ARM/BTS and perfectly serviceable BS options. And you don't really translate Tai Sheng into anything for the Riot Grrls, because there is nothing to translate. Tai Sheng is unique and an upgrade in terms of performance and order availability for the unit. It's very simple math in terms of fairness here; a Zuyong link can routinely dump 12+ orders into moving and shooting, a Riot Grrl link is glad if they get to move and shoot 10 times - it's difficult to quantify this so I will make a comparison to the old Posthumans where the cost and profiles were basically identical to today, but they took up one slot in a combat group per model, generated only one order between them, and were about as popular as their contemporary Pheasant Agent, which is to say basically nobody used them. That's one order difference.

    No, I have not got the galls to complain about Zuyong. Only my neat freak aspect wants to compress the unit down in number of different weapon options. It's the other units that simply do not fit in the remaining 140 points that I'd point at as being the problem.
     
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  9. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

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    Sorry it came across like that. I do get that a link team doctor is handy for that link. But, that's within one small 8" bubble on the table. That's my point.

    Maybe my point is that fireteams themselves can be overrated, and certainly concentrate your resources in one place. Which is not necessarily the best thing, even if there's some handy mods.
     
  10. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Thanks! :)

    I get what you mean. Though as with almost all things in Infinity, it's how you use it. I notice a lot of guys, especially those coming from other games, tend to group their guys too close in a team. They don't realize they can be up to 8 inches from the leader. That's pretty big I think.
     
  11. Mc_Clane

    Mc_Clane Zhànzhēng bùzhǎng
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    The fact that riots need less orders dealing with Skirmishers, camo troopers, mimetism, ODD,... is translated to order efficiency and thus in orders better squeezed to it's fullest potential. And that's Some degree of fairness compared to TA.

    But, I'm just comparing the core of a HI list in terms of performance. Of course both fireteams have different mechanics at hand and are played differently. But when you build a List arround a Brick of 10 wounds you need to be sure it'll totally worth it and that It'll be durable because wound concentration has a lot of issues. firstly the enemy just needs "half the orders" to reach the shooting, second wounds can pass in pairs due to the Active burst, special ammo's... third You'll probably have half the specialist in table. Some degree of resilience is the main need of a HI Coreteam and I'm only asking for a fairer rangeband of cost of the fireteam as a whole and rational and interesting profile options.

    A HI coreteam works well arround 165 points or less on an average list with cheap alternatives to fill the rest of the list (check out the HI linkteams that perform well aon tournaments). invincible is not one of those. In invincible get a fireteam on that rangeband of cost is only posible giving up it's special percs,or filling the list with the remotes (pangoFTO and sonbae) loosing it's HI spirit and It quite cripples the fireteam performance when advancing (specially dealing with narrow accesses), It drops down the fireteam resilience too, and you can only improve it on a couple situations including an engineer on the fireteam (but that fireteam tends to a static force due to the nature of those options)

    I don't want Zuyongs to become crazy OP or unjustified discounts. I just want them to perform coherently. Mabe taking out TA from them and giving it to some other troops that can make better use of it like mowang, Liuxing or hulang (It's even easier to write the rule). Lone troopers that starve from orders. Get a doctor (even with WP12!), rethink the automedikit cost (4 points is too much for a PH12 without reroll) and rework on those unsexy profiles to give them a rationalized sexy approach.

    Liuxing with TA? Damn it even has some Vanilla sexiness.
     
    #51 Mc_Clane, May 8, 2019
    Last edited: May 8, 2019
  12. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    The link teams we're talking about, HI links, are expensive to the point where all the shit you want to actually heal is in the link because they're the bulk of your list. You don't need board coverage when the 4 other models that are actually going to win you the game are all next to the Doctor anyway.
     
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  13. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

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    I get that. Anecdotally, these forums seem full of stories where that kind of list struggles somewhat; I know my times with Druze (I guess a similar eggs-in-one-basket approach) have turned me more towards smaller elite teams than one resource sink. Which is where a wider presence is beneficial.
     
  14. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    In IA, you don't really have much of a choice, list design tends towards a full Core team (or a 3-man core and a Haris, but that's unusual).
     
  15. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

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    A core of 3 (or 4, if I want a SSL2 hacker) is my go-to, and maybe a Haris. Otherwise, it's lots of duos (for efficiency). If a profile can stand up in vanilla perfectly fine, then surely it can stand without bonuses in a sectorial.

    What excites me most about IA is having TA and NCO spread around the table, so multiple vectors benefit from free orders.
     
  16. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Since people are comparing anyway, I thought I’d compare the basic Shang Ji to others in it’s class from other factions. I think it kind of illustrates my point that he’s not bad for his class. It’s the rest of the force that hurts him by giving him the support he needs! Though some of the weapon options could be better too. But those would just be tweeks.

    Further, I hardly see any of these troops being used. Maybe it's not just the Shang Ji?
     

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  17. SKOZZOKONZ

    SKOZZOKONZ Well-Known Member

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    Man frenzy discount is dumb
     
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  18. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Agreed! Especially when Frenzy is ignored due to being in a fireteam.

    I forgot to put something in for being in a fireteam. But all of them can be in a fireteam in some way. The Santiago can only be in a Duo or Wildcard into any. Also any number of them.
     
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  19. Zerooness

    Zerooness Member

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    this should definetly be a thing!
     
  20. Zerooness

    Zerooness Member

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    i think yu jing should get a faction wide ability instead of just giving them +1 CC they also give them a ability that gets them +1 on the roll without having to have 20+ CC, so for instant a 19 CC would krit at 10%. That would give me at least the feeling of a superior Close Combat army