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The lonely Shang Ji

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Space Ranger, Apr 24, 2019.

  1. ambisinister

    ambisinister Broken Zoetrope

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    People should absolutely take things for fun or because they like the look of the model . Games can still be won with sub optimal lists. I think people are engaging you base don stats and points costs because that's the metric you used in the initial post.
     
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  2. Someone

    Someone Active Member

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    I can agree with this, I often take stuff that I just like the model. I would still rather it didn’t stink. I also think it’s better for us as a faction if the more motivated to win players find us a good army to play, just to ensure our continued existence. The ideal would probably be the Su Jian circumstance, good models and good rules.
     
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  3. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    About the only Shang Ji I'd really take now is the HRL, because that's a unique weapon.

    And that's it in a nutshell.


    So I think the best option is to make the Shang Ji do things that the Zuyong cannot do.

    This also gets into what I'd like to see done with IA in general, make all the different units have a specific tabletop role and give them the tools to do that role. Kinda like what happened to MO (but fixing Shang Ji and Teutons!).


    That's my 'big change' I'd want to do to the Shang Ji, aside from Kinematika L2 and Deflector L2 on all profiles (gets the Shang Ji back to an approximation of how it worked in N2, but that's like a 5pt increase! Maybe dropping BTS down to 3 in the process?). Maybe TA on all profiles, too, but that's an additional 4pts.

    What kinds of things would I give the Shang Ji that the Zuyong just flat cannot do?
    • Multi+LGL, maybe with Normal and Eclipse (or Nimbus) grenades (might put the Eclipse 'nades on other models).
    • HRL
    • maybe Spitfire, but that's just a shorter-ranged HMG
    • Maybe Chain Rifle and SMG
    • maybe Combi+E/Mitter with or without mines (might make that the standard Shang Ji loadout, might keep Combi+LFT)
     
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  4. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Except the Shang Ji is shitty and boring, and the Guijia is also shitty and boring. "Competitively viable" and "fun to use" are not mutually exclusive concepts. Properly developing these units (and other missed boats in the fleet of missed boats that is the Invincible Army) would not only make them more worth taking on the principle of being good units to win with, but by expanding the available list of viable units and roles within those units, make IA more fun to play as a faction since there's more that can be explored within it.
     
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  5. archon

    archon Well-Known Member

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    I doubt that CB will do that, but I like this. It is more representative for the peoples. Make them weaker stats-like and looks more like a soldier with good training in a standard issue power armour while the Shang Ji has an elite training (make them elite or veteran) and better power armour (true 2 W, higher defensiv stats). And is will be easier to fit a spec op profile here.

    When I build a list for IA I never think about a Shang Ji for two reasons: a) they are too expensive, b) I have none and there a no new models (the old combi/lft was nice back in the days, but now I wouldn´t buy it for normal price). The third - c) - reason is: I do not miss a HRL, an expensive Spitfire or the AHD (I have that on Lui and Zencha already). I could use a specialist with a template in my Zuyong link, but ... thats not worth 10 pts extra.

    So: Shang Ji are far to expensive, pay for higher stats, that you not realy need and bring not enough difference in weapon choices. CB have made the Hospitallers cheaper on all profiles, they could do it here again. Or give them something to stand out. If we forgo mimetism, TI or BS 14 *sigh* then we look for some skills or unique weaponary. From the point of vanilla, it has to fit between Wu Ming and Zuyong. What about Marksmen Rifles, Breaker Combi, MK-12, Heavy Shotgun, E-Marat or the new Dazer? Paired with MSV1 on the MMR (wich will make a resilent camo hunter in vanilla too). As a counter you can cut their +3 range on 24" and change the HRL into a LRL (hello old Wu Ming, that now serves as a panzerfaust).

    The CC is more a cool than useful. It is nice to look at. If that will lower their price I would cut it down to 16. Or rise it to 20 but not rise the price. Oh and skip that generic duo, put this an a few random profiles.
     
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  6. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

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    I used the ShangJi in some lists, because it was my first painted YJ model. The HRL/Shotgun did good, but the other profiles most of the time felt like a big sacrifice for the sake of the painted model.
    Now that I have the new models on the desk, poor ShangJi will sit in the dark of my armybox for many days in his life.

    Maybe thats the first step for a change, as CB claims to use army and ITS data to see which profiles are played. If noone plays Guijia or ShangJi, maybe they get changed someday.
     
  7. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    The Guijia is forever doomed, people keep buying it because of the sculpt. Also we all fucked ourselves by buying a bunch of the limited edition ones.

    I have 3 fucking Guijia right now.

    God.

    Dammit.
     
  8. Mc_Clane

    Mc_Clane Zhànzhēng bùzhǎng
    Warcor

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    So you essentially want wu-mings inside invincible....

    I would give shangji different options that cover specific roles inside the zuyong
    • MA1, DA CCW, SMG, chaincolt and Stun grenades (or even better a zapper instead of this last two)
    • Multi rifle + Nº2 +Tactical sense (Instead of the Spitfire one. the model calls for it)
    • Assault hacker with Tactical sense and haris (instead of the tinbot one)
    • Paramedic turn to doctor and get nimbus grenades or stratocloud
    • Combi+E/M grenade launcher
    Just with those 5 the zuyong linkteam options will improve a lot while diferencing from other Yujing HIs
     
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  9. Janzerker

    Janzerker Invincible Angry

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    I really like all your suggestions except this one.
    Stratocloud, so far, is an alien device exclusive of Tohaa. Also I don't think there's any intention by Gutier to give doctor to YJ HIs. Since the beginning of the game it was quite clear to YuJing players that our skills in doctoring in the faction would be quite poor and limited.
     
  10. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Not entirely, but I must have been looking at the Wu Ming profiles when I wrote that.


    That's a good idea, and really falls back into my statement about making the Shang Ji do things that the Zuyong just don't/can't do.
     
    Space Ranger likes this.
  11. Mc_Clane

    Mc_Clane Zhànzhēng bùzhǎng
    Warcor

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    I think is just absurd in concept to make a list around Wound concentration and resistance with ARM3 and no doctors. Specially since zuyong fireteams are not so cheap as it seems.

    • a zuyong fireteam of 5 members costs around 175 points and extra caps due to the need of including the innate invincible mechanics (TA and NCO)
    • a Riot girl Fireteam cost around 160 points and it's more resilient. Long-range disposable weapons, dodge on 16s...
    • Hollow men fireteam costs around 165 points and it's more resilient, ARM4 2 unconscious state and structure make them tough as hell
    • Mobile brigada fireteam, ARM4, PH 14, Has access to doctor, from 172 points... more resilient than zuyongs
    • Wuming fireteam from 165 points, ARM 4, PH13, access to long-range disposable weapons, direct templates... more resilent than zuyongs
    • Hospitalier Knights from 168 points ARM4, PH14, access to doctor, Superior BS... more resilent than Zuyongs
    • ....
    The initial cheap zuyong fireteam (less than 160 points) get's premium due to the Tactical sense and Taisheng. There's definitely a lot of investment there. And the Linkteam is less resilient than the rest of the fireteams by far. for god's sake, why the worse HI in the game in terms of stats and resistance becomes one of the more expensive ones?

    And the automedikit solution doesn't fix a thing. paying almost a fucking doctor cost (4 points) to have only the chance to heal 1 troop without rerolls at 12s? This is sincerely crap and that's why it's not cosen inside Invincible linkteams

    sincerely how CB pretends for this paper linkteam to work and to be the spine of a sectorial? An expensive fireteam means that the other troops (that are also expensive) will not enter inside the lists. That's a crappy approach to a HI list

    A HI list starves for a doctor inside the fireteam. The paramedic could work with medjector instead of medikit. But the troop loadouts should push towards taking it. But now is really pointless to fit one inside the linkteam
     
    #31 Mc_Clane, May 8, 2019
    Last edited: May 8, 2019
  12. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

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    One thing the Shiang Ji has that doesn't exist anywhere else in IA is a linkable (read SSL2) Assault Hacking Device. Behind a Deflector.

    Just sayin' my Brawler AHD loves his SSL2 in a developed repeater network. In IA, that takes effort, but at least you're developing attack remotes at the same time...
     
  13. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
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    Y'know, Yu Jing cannot into repeaters. :(
     
  14. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

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    There's one that walks 12 inches a turn, to project hacking attacks 20" from where it started.

    And, you get 2 of them...
     
  15. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
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    I don't frankly believe FP bots serve as mobile repeaters.

    You'll get fried by Blackout most of the time, or be a jumping stone for KHD ;)
     
  16. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

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    Being fried by blackout or used as a gateway to a khd kinda applies to all repeaters (deployable or pitchered). My point is that, for one order, you can have equivalent reach to a pitcher.

    You just need to be prepared to use them a little outside the box.
     
  17. KestrelM1

    KestrelM1 Well-Known Member

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    Because none of those other teams get to spend 14 orders a turn.

    If you're going to include the cost of TA and NCO (neither of which cost SWC/CAP as you claim) in your "not so cheap" fireteam, it's incredibly short-sighted to dismiss their benefits in your comparison.
     
    #37 KestrelM1, May 8, 2019
    Last edited: May 8, 2019
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  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I don't know what you add to these fireteams to make them have these costs, but if you form the teams with somewhat similar units you'll note a few things:
    1. A Zuyong Fireteam is the only Fireteam that can bring a Killer Hacker. Mobile Brigada has a normal Hacker and Wu Ming has a normal LI Hacker.
    2. A Zuyong Fireteam has access to the most complete set of direct-fire weapons of all of the above, in part thanks to Shang-Ji, but mostly because Zuyong themselves have a very solid foundation
    3. When you make a Zuyong Fireteam, you're more likely to spend points on SWC models simply because a Zuyong HMG offers a lot more than a Riot Grrl Spitfire. This doesn't mean Zuyong are more SWC intensive, quite the opposite in fact. A Riot Grrl link with 2 Spitfires or a double HMG Hospitaller link run a lot hotter on SWC than does a double-HMG Zuyong.
    4. It is entirely by your own choice that a Zuyong Fireteam is so expensive.
    See below comparison, where we must remember that Riot Grrls are one of the absolutely pinnacles of HI efficiency thanks to in very large part Frenzy that they basically never suffer for.

    Invincible Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]5
    ZÚYǑNG Missile Launcher, Light Shotgun / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (2 | 36)
    ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Haris, Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 34)
    HǍIDÀO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 26)
    ZÚYǑNG HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1.5 | 35)
    ZÚYǑNG (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 28)

    4 SWC | 159 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Jurisdictional Command of Bakunin
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]5
    RIOT GRRL Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 34)
    RIOT GRRL (Specialist Operative) Combi Rifle, Blitzen, Stun Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)
    RIOT GRRL Boarding Shotgun, Stun Grenades + TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)
    RIOT GRRL Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 33)
    RIOT GRRL Combi Rifle, Blitzen, Stun Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 29)

    4 SWC | 156 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Yes, the Riot Grrls are less expensive by a few points, but the Zuyong have better reach, a Killer Hacker, an extra Specialist, an extra order, and all this without resorting to bullshit points evasion that is Frenzy. Now, I'm not saying Riot Grrls are too cheap, but I might be saying that quite possibly the other HI should be a bit closer to them in points because Frenzy isn't the drawback Riot Grrls have to deal with, it's Hackable.
     
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  19. Janzerker

    Janzerker Invincible Angry

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    You're selling too short the Zuyong link. To claim it's a paper linkteam … A Zuyong link team can still tank a mine or a member take a wound from shock and continue fighting. That's what makes a HI unit.

    Now from the units you mention Riots and Hospitalliers and cheating are the same concept. Those are units that will be nerfed back to balance the day the interaction between frenzy and link teams is fixed. That's something that must happen for the sake of game's balance. Now Hollowmen is just a bad designed unit in the wrong army, it's something that should be in YJ instead of Nomads or become a REM unit with a single 1W and dogged or NWI but no shock immunity. But the dishonest favoritism of some Developers and testers towards Nomad faction brought us to the current situation. My point is, you shouldn't use any of those units as a base for comparison.

    Zuyong compares with the likes of WuMing, Mobile Brigada, Jannisaire, Orcs, … and there it does well. You mention they are more resillient than Zuyong, which is true, but in the meaning that their superior PH allows them to dodge better than Zuyong. other than that there's practically no difference between ARM 3 and 4. Zuyong can receive shock damage take a second wound and still be healed back. Also their BS 13 is quite respectable. However Zuyong get 9 points cheaper than their counterparts, which I think makes up for the difference in stats.

    HI fireteams have been doing fine without attached doctors until know, with exception of Hospitalliers and Jannisaires, but that's their special thing. Imho it's been an error by part of developers to allow Avicenna in Starco Riots' and Foreign Company Orc link teams as well as making Daktari a wildcard in Corregidor. As now there're probably more HI fireteams with linked doctor than without access to it in the game. So I can understand your point of view : "Why not us too?" But in my opinion a linked doctor in YJ HI fireteams would be just another step towards the homogenization of the factions in the game. That being said many believed taboos have been surpassed lately...
     
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  20. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Hollow Man are definitely exactly where they should be: the glorious Nomad nation.
     
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