I think the loss of Oniwabans is going to be felt much harder. The potential of a hidden close range murder machine tempered the advance of many high cost ramrod pieces like HI links or rambo models more than any single ARO piece YJ had or has left available. With the knowledge that they're gone my opponents largely only need to plan around dealing with hidden Ninjas in the midfield which only have 1 good profile and it's for button pushing. This move from CB has pretty much entirely gutted YJ's hidden deployment threats.
Do you really think that CB will leave the YJ spot open for months? Seriously? They always said that YJ was the HI faction. The schism will took away from Vanilla these units (Bostria mentioned that only Ninjas will be in YJ, but sometimes he faults like with Fatality in the same video...) : HI - Domaru (rarely used), Haramaki (never used for their X-IMP), Karakuri (rarely used due to cost compared to other units), Shikami (the only one i saw often used) LI/MI/WB/SK - Keisotsu and Tokusetsu (used just to spare points), Aragoto and Kempei (never seen one in a Vanilla list), Raiden and Oniwaban (these are the real loss here) Now try t look at it from a FLUFF point of view. What happened (and we still don't know the full extension of it, remember!)? JSA repression => Japan uprising => O-12 step in and recognize and help Japan to free itself "because reasons". What should be the YJ answer? Because i can see 2 immediate logical answers... 1) Reinforce the internal grip, that is ISS (and Bostria mentioned just yesterday new reinforcement for ISS) 2) Fund a new loyalist army that will be the NEW BANNER of the Emperor. The new "poster boys". The F-INVINCIBLE ARMY. What could suits better the position? Do you really think that the event won't go this way in a small lapse of time? It never happened before that CB released a PDF Army months before the relative books, right? In the meantime, you can always choose to cry and despair, Bostria will be pleased. He is a Vampire that feeds on the player's tears. It is known... Or maybe you can simply keep playing with what you have, if you don't want to buy new stuff. No one ever told (and i think WILL NEVER TELL) you this. I feel that we all should wait for the events to develop and settle. JSA is the first of the 5 new armies for this year (Bostria told this in one of the BoW vids), i bet the next will not be as far from now as you think...
Hac Tao. Ninja. And it's possible Ninjas will undergo some change as well Losing Oniwabans and Kitsune will force some changes, but they were both AVA 1, 40+ pts. units. I highly doubt it'll really hurt.
Botria said as much. "This will be a bad year for YJ" "Play ISS until we fix your vanilla" Your reasoning is sound, but goes against the facts we currently have.
The mere happening of the schism within this year make me call 2018 a bad year for YJ. Maybe some are fixed on the cow. If you move the cow, you can see the landscape...
I can see the landscape, it is telling me that IA is 2019 news. You seem to be looking at the clouds tho.
Hac Tao doesn't pack the same threat, it doesn't infiltrate so it's always in your DZ. Unless you're willing to bring the one trick wonder ML loadout a Hac Tao doesn't pose the same surprise threat to something like a TAG pushing forwards. Simply coming 6" closer to Yu Jing currently means they need to ask themselves the question "What if a Kitsune is there? Because if I move forward and there is a Kitsune there I'm dead next turn." Or it can screw with their deployment, particularly when you run it with Sun Tze. If I elect to go first with Sun Tze and my opponent has a high value target model, they will naturally deploy defensively around it because if they leave it open I have the option to take a shot at an infiltration roll and gib it. Kitsune has put down more than one TAG doing this on the first turn. And they deploy defensively regardless of whether or not I actually have a Kitsune. Simply being Yu Jing creates this threat. Losing access to these models allows my opponent to play without having this weight over them anymore, which is a direct nerf to every single YJ army list when your opponent's rambo pieces are free to push forwards without worrying about an instagib coming out of nowhere. Consider playing against Haqq. You deploy expecting to need to deal with a Fiday alot of the time regardless of whether your opponent brings one. Imagine if Haqq had their Fidays taken off them. You would deploy differently, more aggressively and with fewer concerns about letting an impersonator run riot through your back lines. Ninjas and Hac Tao do not have this effect. Post split playing against YJ will change fairly dramatically in terms of opponents being able to be far more aggressive on turn 1, which is a concern when the faction is on the weaker scale of ARO pieces.
I played the Ninja assault hacker the other week against a HI heavy bakunin list and it did way more work against my opponent than my Oniwaban or Shinobu did that game. I just left it as a marker on a rooftop and he was too afraid to get close to it for fear of isolation. On the right table, it controls a massive amount of the board and it's very difficult to dislodge .
Nah, vanilla is dead. CB has implied many times that sectorials are the real factions. This is just the first step to removing vanilla all together. Carlos even said in the first video he was enjoying drinking yujing tears. I think they actively dislike their player base.
Did you really make an account just to say this? Vanilla YJ is honestly still incredibly strong even after the change, and vanilla factions have been stronger than sectorials for most of N3, IMO.
It's alot weaker than it was that's for sure. I'm already having to change stuff to compensate for getting rushed by rambo pieces. You don't just remove a bunch of models people are using competitively and expect the status quo not to shift in a negative fashion for them.
@Triumph, can you show us how your typical lists look like? I'm curious how I could compensate for the loss myself.
Something along these lines Suntze ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 8 2 1 SUN TZE Lieutenant (Advanced Command) MULTI Rifle, 2 Nanopulsers, Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 65) GŬILÁNG (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27) GŬILÁNG (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27) CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) TOKUSETSU KOHEI Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) SHINOBU Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Monofilament CCW. (0.5 | 47) KEISOTSU Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 17) SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5) WARCOR (Aerocam) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3) HÙSÒNG Yaókòng HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25) GROUP 2 6 1 5 CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13) RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1 | 20) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5) 3.5 SWC | 299 Points Open in Infinity Army This is something I've run in the past. It will lose the warcor to the points adjustment, so an ARO piece down, and it will lose the combination of Sun Tze pretty much guaranteeing the Kitsune out deploys any opponent, forcing them to behave extremely defensively. This means they can deploy with far better board coverage, and can in the first turn advance extremely aggressively without fear of instant repercussions. I've had the Kitsune punish the shit out of opponents who don't respect that she might be hiding, she's racked up 150pts+ in kills in a turn before. You do that to people it puts the fear of the Kitsune into them, they don't play like that twice and slow the fuck down on the first turn. Personally I'm investing in more Husongs and Madtraps to make up for opponents being able to behave far more aggressively.
Here's a list I used in a league; Massive Firebase ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 YĀN HUǑ Hyper-Rapid Magnetic Cannon / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 54) YĀN HUǑ Hyper-Rapid Magnetic Cannon / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 54) ARMAND (Multispectral Visor L1) MULTI Sniper, Nanopulser / 2 Breaker Pistols, Shock CC Weapon, Knife. (1.5 | 45) ZHANSHI Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11) ONIWABAN Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Monofilament CCW. (0 | 41) TOKUSETSU EISEI Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) TOKUSETSU KOHEI Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) XI ZHUANG Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, MadTraps / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20) ZHÀNYING (Sensor) Breaker Combi Rifle, Nimbus Grenades, MadTraps / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 28) CELESTIAL GUARD Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13) 5.5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army It's the only vanilla list I've got saved atm due to a tournament where I played ISS, but as you can see this was for a fairly kill-based mission (I no longer remember the exact details, but it probably was control central objective with a TAG). Oniwaban didn't get to do anything because I ended up on a fairly open table against a Contact Force and was able to simply delete the TAGs and everything that wasn't inside a building. (Zhanshi LT simply because among 5 different LT capable models, it's the most crappy one possible - so pretty well hidden. All MadTraps were set up protecting the Celestial Guard.) Of note is that I usually start building a vanilla list by selecting what I want to play with as the primary attacker, the secondary attacker, then I add two Tokusetsu and after that specialists. If I have points and SWC left for Armand, he gets to tag a long, though I often end up making room for him since he's simply that good at killing TR HMGs.
Given that defence here consists of 1 Husong, 1 Chaiyi, 1 Warcor and 1 Kitsune, I'm not surprised opponents might feel free to advance. Kitsune is still a single, expensive, 1W model with limited range. If you want to utilize her CC abilities opponent has to pass within 4" of her, and it's not that hard to find a safer way. In your active turn good opponent will assume a defensive stance anyway, and it might not be so easy to get to him. If I were to remake that list I might go with something like this: Suntze ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 8 2 1 SUN TZE Lieutenant (Advanced Command) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser, Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 57) GŬILÁNG (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27) GŬILÁNG (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27) YĀN HUǑ 2 Missile Launchers + TinBot C (Neurocinetics) / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 56) HÙSÒNG Yaókòng HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25) ZHANSHI Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 19) MECH-ENGINEER Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5) WARCOR (Aerocam) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3) GROUP 2 5 1 4 CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13) RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1 | 20) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5) 5 SWC | 298 Points Open in Infinity Army Or this: Suntze ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 8 2 1 SUN TZE Lieutenant (Advanced Command) MULTI Sniper Rifle, Nanopulser, Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 61) GŬILÁNG (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27) GŬILÁNG Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 31) KǍNRÈN Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, MadTraps / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 28) HÙSÒNG Yaókòng HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25) MECH-ENGINEER Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) WÈIBĪNG Yaókòng Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16) CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5) WARCOR (Aerocam) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3) GROUP 2 6 1 4 RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1 | 20) PANGGULING Hacker (EVO Hacking Device) Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 25) CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5) 5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army Both lists have tools to outdeploy the opponent, slow him down (I'd even argue that Kanren does jsut as good job here as Kitsune, if in a different way), and then take the fight to him. Here I'd probably go with something like this: Massive Firebase ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 YĀN HUǑ Hyper-Rapid Magnetic Cannon / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 54) YĀN HUǑ Hyper-Rapid Magnetic Cannon / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 54) ARMAND (Multispectral Visor L1) MULTI Sniper, Nanopulser / 2 Breaker Pistols, Shock CC Weapon, Knife. (1.5 | 45) KǍNRÈN Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, MadTraps / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 28) GŬILÁNG (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27) ZHANSHI Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11) Zhanshi YĪSHĒNG Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) MECH-ENGINEER Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) XI ZHUANG Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, MadTraps / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20) ZHÀNYING (Sensor) Breaker Combi Rifle, Nimbus Grenades, MadTraps / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 28) 5.5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army Lt. is more obvious, but it can be further tweaked to remedy that. And midfield presence is actually increased, even if no model has the singular impact of the Oniwaban. All in all I can see how it might require change in lists, but objectively looking it's not a big nerf, and even then it's temporary. It'll require changing habits and lists, but Infinity always had that going. If PanO were to lose Joan I'd be upset too... for a moment. Then I'd tweak my playstyle to compensate for the loss. Adapt and overcome.
Your assessment is largely wrong. Firstly SunTze places a WIP17 flash pulse on ARO duty as well. As long as he isn't placed in front of a 5 man link he does a great job of slowing stuff down. Secondly the opponent doesn't need to end within 4" of the kitsune. Opponent just needs to come forward, then you can dump 4-5 orders into the Kitsune to maneuver her into CC. Group 2 can prep smoke for her advance or pick off MSV2 things that may be in the way. If your opponent doesn't come forwards aggressively with their best pieces because they're concerned about hidden presence or you went first, then you get to spend orders pushing the Guilangs around pressing buttons and dumping mines all over the place, and moving SunTze into a good spot to suppressive fire and lock it down. Either way it's beneficial to you. If your opponent feels free to advance you punish the shit out of him for it and he loses his best pieces while you offered up stuff like a warcor, Chaiyi, maybe SunTze eats a couple of wounds. He on the other hand loses his best pieces. If he deploys extremely cautiously, or moves very slowly and defensively, you get the run of the board on the first turn and get ahead scenario wise with the Guilang and prep the board with mines, without revealing the Kitsune.
Removing Vanilla to get a better game sounds good to me in the long run. Axing them right now would obviously a terrible idea, so don't get the wrong idea. Keeping unrestricted Vanilla as is around has a lot of downsides. Replacing Vanilla with several Battle Lists mixing a few Sectorials and adding Fireteam Options to those, seems good for the game long term. Several Factions are already leaden with troops who only got dumped there because a Sectorial has them. New and powerful staple troops for Sectorials need to be kept in check for Vanilla. Raising the ceiling leads to powercreep and it gets harder and harder to avoid that. Aleph loaners or Mercs are one solution, replacing Vanilla Factions as we know them with something different might be an even better one. ... this could also stop that constant noise of squeaking Artichokes I keep hearing in the back of my head. @Triumph mate with all due respect. The longer I take a look at your list the more I fail to see how a Dao Fei would't be a massive improvement over Shinobu. Like any list it depends a lot on the mission but duuuude what do you have against guns?
@Stiopa all in all what you suggest is a good adaptation of the list I presented. However, I don't actually have habits beyond Armand. Losing Tokusetsu is going to seriously slow my lists down, no doubt about it, but I like varying my lists a lot so that I am never predictable so losing Oniwaban hurts a lot. I wish I still had the double-Oni list saved, that thing was brutal in the combo of JSA elements providing an in-your-face threat and Yu Jing long range support.
