@xagroth I was equating it to courage, not intelligence, but since you're going that path let me just remind you that many of these soldiers you suggest of lowering WIP on (to save literally 1 point) are career soldiers who've already spent time as Zhanshi, etc. To be honest I don't think that path is the path forward. Far from all units should be streamlined. I think instead units with overlapping or conflicting abilities should pay less for having the more choices. To take the simplest of examples, a light shotgun for a unit with a combi rifle is valuable as a tactical option, but it is not as valuable as it is for a unit who is carrying a rifle because the shotgun complements a rifle better. As a minor observation, due to the way high stats are priced, that Hospitaller Doctor would end up eating the few points you save on the couple of WIP 12 non-specialist Hospitaller you suggest. Also, having Courage makes Hospitaller a bit of an edge case since the non-specialists never uses WIP at all.
Wonder why I never considered it, but as is the game might actually need rerolls as a mechanic. The only ones I can think of are Doc/Engineer rolls at the expense of a command Token. Infinity being a low dice volume game with D20s there is a lot of RNG extremes and being unable to compensate for that is part of why things can be so swingy. Maybe HI and TAGs should just be allowed to reroll saves under restricted circumstances but not more than one die per Order. Would make them more resilient especially against oneshots and conventional small arms, but at the same time still far from impervious to dedicated countermeasures. Rerolls as a general mechanic is largely nonexistant in the game so I'm not sure if the game really benefits from it, but if someone would like it to boost defense it sure would be the game's heavy troops. Next to Total Immunity and Vis Mods defensive stats are abysmal in value - and even low tech pseudo Ariadna HI would really welcome a buff in survivability. Problem with that being again that it only defends against hacking and is a waste of points against Ariadna, Tohaa and any other army composition that forfeits the offensive aspect of it. Completely agreed.... Brings us back to the point someone made early that some people are completely oblivious to what is or might be an actual problem and what is not. Forgetting Ariadna HI are we? :P Not sure where you got that, but that is very bad information. This is true for BS9-12, after that cost for BS starts to skyrocket. Several other skills also get more expensive with BS12+, as a prominent example Camo levels. TL:DR BS scales past a threshold, WIP always is linear +1 point per extra WIP.
@Teslarod nope Ariadna HI are accounted for, they are all Shock Immune unless I'm missing one of them?
It would make Dogged/NWI MI way scarier, but it'd be nice to have a higher chance to survive random shock crits, and then get your MI attack piece up with a doctor. Marauders, Patrocles, Arslan... a few might be disproportionately helped by this, but I'm game.
Eh there were already plenty of units that work and that sectorial kicks ass. I don't understand what you're complaining about.
That's not the impression I got from you at all. And it's a problem now that we're veering into the "Emperor has no clothes" situation where the community has figured out the problems with CB's points scheme but the complaints are ignored because they're coming from the wrong people.
I complain not about not getting strong units, but about getting no flavour units. Almost none of the new units fit well within existing OSS lore and mechanical representations of this role, not to mention to overall change to what was expected would be sectorial identity. Right now, sectorial doesn't have any identity. It does everything a bit.
Yeah Shock Immunity for Medium Infrantry (call it "Integrated Life Support") is something I suggested for MI instead of Bravery to @Hellois in the ITS forum for next ITS season. I hesitated were that I thought maybe Strategic Deployment was going to be CBs main rules version of Bravery, but better targeted. A few non typical MI would be very strong with Shock Immunity (looking at you Proxy Mk5) I think but mainly it would make them a better step in durability between LI and HI, and have a nice textured gameplay effect (they're units that are good to doctor, because they are expensive). Maybe just for linked MI?
Interesting thought. Yes, the original reason BTS was in increments of 3 was because in N1/N2 it was a mod to the hackers WIP, effectively Mimetism or ODD versus hacking. Now, we don't need to keep the increments of 3, since it's functioning as ARM. Either that or we bump ARM to units of 3, but that would imply now-ARM4 troops up to ARM12 (4x increments of 3), so that's not really an option. When you're trying to make a 10-strong list and your specialists are 40pts? Yes, Zuyong are about 3pts overcosted across the board. Point of Order! Where does that leave ORCs, Brigada, Zuyong/Shang Ji, Janissaries, Suryats, and even Ectros? Those are functionally basic troopers in heavier armor, no specialty gear or training. Point of Order! Where does that leave the Hulang, Haidao, Liu Xing, Zhencha, and Hortlak Janissaries? You know, all the 1W+NWI 'HI' that have been introduced this year? He's talking about the Zhencha, which is the camo+infiltrating 1W+NWI trooper in IA, and the only 1W+NWI HI that doesn't have (at least) Shock Immunity in the entire game.
Wow so firstly. 28 pt specialists not 40.... Secondly youre limiting yourself to LI by your own choice. Stop doing that, start taking 1 or 2 combat specialists and fill out the rest of your list with your regular light infantry specialists. And how can you not write an LI list with 30 pt specialists. The rest of us manage fine with specialists that sit above the average pts cost per model for an LI list. I mean id get it if you were running into havong pts spare and nothing to fit. But your HI sit right below and above the average pts. With the extra orders theres no issues building li lists.
I'm fairly sure IA players avoid using Zhanshi simply because they are sadly quite boring. Even Fusiliers and Alguaciles get FO/DepRep to play with to project some extra Hacking. That said, the SatLock bot is as good as anyone elses' equivalents. IA doesn't really have a power issue going above 1 combat group, but it gets tricky to make something fun to play that wouldn't be better in Vanilla.
In an Li list you want to be taking your hacker with you, this means that a repeater net is less of a requirement. When your hacker is a KHD thats rocking around with ss2 and a tinbot B its melting most things that take a stab at it
Have you tried to build IA lists? Grabbing the core "you're fucking stupid if you don't take these models" takes over 200 points in 6 models: Invincible Army ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 6 DĀOYĪNG Lieutenant L2 Hacker (Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 29) TAI SHENG Mk12, Chain-colt, Stun Grenades / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 45) KOKRAM FTO (Fireteam: Duo) Combi Rifle + E/Mitter, Chain-colt, E/Mauler / 2 Heavy Pistols, Knife. (0 | 39) ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Haris, Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 34) ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Duo, Tactical Awareness) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1.5 | 38) HǍIDÀO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 26) 2.5 SWC | 211 Points Open in Infinity Army (Krit may be replaced by either a Zuyong ML or a Shang Ji HRL) Then you grab a Haidao Engineer, since an engineer in a link team cannot have helperbots. 239pts, 7 models OK, now an infiltrator (or AD trooper, someone to work well forward) would be good, the infiltrator option is the Zhencha FO at 34pts, and the AD option is the Liu Xing at 38pts. Let's grab the LX. 277 points, 8 models. You have 23pts remaining. Cheap Engineer or Doc are 15pts each, Weibing combi+FObot is 16. If you take the Weibing you have 7pts remaining, and NOTHING IN THE LIST is 7pts! OK, Zanshi Doc it is since we already have two engineers. Your only 8pt options are the Chaiyi 6-6 repeaterbot and the cheap baggagebot. That gives you this list: Invincible Army ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 DĀOYĪNG Lieutenant L2 Hacker (Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 29) TAI SHENG Mk12, Chain-colt, Stun Grenades / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 45) KOKRAM FTO (Fireteam: Duo) Combi Rifle + E/Mitter, Chain-colt, E/Mauler / 2 Heavy Pistols, Knife. (0 | 39) ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Haris, Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 34) ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Duo, Tactical Awareness) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1.5 | 38) HǍIDÀO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 26) HǍIDÀO Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 28) LIÚ XĪNG (Specialist Operative) MULTI Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 38) Zhanshi YĪSHĒNG Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) PANGGULING (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) 2.5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army 10 models, 16 orders. But 9 of those models are starting in your DZ, and 5 of them are limited to being within an 8" circle of each other to allow for changing Team Leader. (I'd probably drop Krit out of the link team to grab a ML, which would also free up enough points to add a helperbot to the engineer) ONE model that isn't starting in your DZ. There isn't enough spare points to take either two Zhencha, two Liu Xing, or one of each.
Not using Zhanshi because they're boring, or building only for Limited Insertion, basically acknowledge that viability isn't as interesting to you as your own personal interpretation of how the game should be played. That's fine, all good, but you have to recognize that you're sacrificing competitive options. You're deliberately handicapping yourself, and basically excluding yourself from discussions about competitive viability or tactical listbuilding. As for those lists... I don't think that's the best way to play IA, tbh. It's got some cool stuff going for it, but I also think it's a trap. If it were the only way to play IA, you'd be correct in stating that IA has some issues. But it's not the only way to play IA.
Yeah dont blame CB for your personal tastes. And even without zanshi its perfectly possible to build working IA LI lists. As too 2x HI specialists/ad. No you dont get two....jusy like most of us dont get 2. Because your getting 1 thats better. You lack redundancy but make up for it with individual ability of your troops. Welcome to HI LI list building
I agree that building all-HI is not the most competitive way to play IA. I'm saying it should be competitive, and it's not at present. Why is the fluff for IA saying "In the Chang Sheng Chun, or the Invincible Army, lies the military force of Yu Jing: the power to deploy in combat numerous heavily armoured infantry troops" if that isn't a viable way to play them in the game? Infinity has been really good about keeping sectorial playstyles lining up with their fluff.
You are misisng the point sec9. Taking HI can be viable. But you cant get your cake and eat it too. You dont get to spam HI skirmishers or ad the way other lists get to spam 1w skirmishers or ad. Thats the point and design as intended
