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The Heavy Infantry Problem

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Weathercock, Jun 15, 2019.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I disagree with this. Heavy Infantry were never perfect during any point in N3, without some means of mitigating their problems - and one way to handle problems is simply to give a discount, meaning Frenzy HI with their fairly heavy discounts (and its easy to avoid drawback). As soon as you start getting enough Heavy Infantry that anti-HI tactics become shooting fish in a barrel the problems become apparent.

    Running a Yan Huo or a Kriza doesn't mean you'll get to the fish-barrel problem and these two in particular will be able to avoid exposure due to their preferred engagement ranges.

    Or if we put it in terms of "money", having a force that's disadvantaged by 5 points isn't huge (let's just ballpark E/M and Hackable vulnerabilities at that in the current environment). When your force starts being disadvantaged by 40-50 points you're going to notice it, and you're forced to use units that are forced to be exposed to those vulnerabilities...

    Footnote: a Frenzy HI doesn't mean automatically beneficial. What's a solo Boarding Shotgun Riot Grrl going to do?
     
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  2. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    The only HI released recently have been those so called "light" HI and, taking into account they firm the majority of what should be the premier HI force in the game, It can be predicted this gonna be the new normal for HI

    And the "fine" HI seem to be the ones with mods to be hit or unfair discounts, so maybe it's more about those skills being enough to offset HI vulnerabilities than HI being strong.
     
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  3. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

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    What do you mean with "light" HI? The Kiel seems pretty heavy to me?
     
  4. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    I've never understood the position for this argument. Is this based on actual experience or the fact that you falsely attribute poor positioning on her powerlevel? I have faced Dart so many times now and I have yet to see her do anything that doesn't swallow a billion orders. And perhaps this is entirely just because I don't play Aleph myself but I don't see any reason why I shouldn't invest in a KHD Daysus instead which, in fact, have brought me a lot of more trouble due to Hidden Deployment, better MOD's and twice the reach in rangeband, as well as being an actual specialist (and really the lack of Shock-immunity almost never comes into play, except against Mines, because the majority of Shock almost always factors in to play on the opponents active turn).

    I will concede, however, that she's an absolute nightmare against Dakini's and Unidron's
     
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  5. SpectralOwl

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    She's got extra defenses against Viral and stronger ARO than the Daofei, but weaker active turn/long range punch unless the target is E/M vulnerable, and has Climbing+ to attack from angles which are hard to defend against. I've played against her a few times and hated her guts because of how hard it is to actually stop her completing a task, even if it is quite order-heavy using her. If she goes for my LT, I basically lose a turn. That's why I classify her as closer to a Daofei than a Guilang; she's an attack piece with the tools and durability to get through anything the opponent can throw at her, where the Guilang is a squishy but useful toolbox who can't really spearhead a serious dive into the enemy troops and expect to come out alive. The Zhencha can do most of that but with the durability of a Fusilier wearing an armoured sandwich board, though I have found that the AHD variant is a real menace to Dakinis as well due to the IMM-shotgun combo tearing through links like paper.
     
  6. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    @SpectralOwl Yeah, that does seem like a fair analysis to me. I can imagine that different metas gives different impressions of a unit, so perhaps I'm missing some perspective here as well as experience with more opponents using Dart.

    Wouldn't the link just declare the use of Sixth Sense and delay their ARO?
     
  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I'd imagine that the Zhencha AHD would simply directly go face to face Carbonite vs Reset from total cover and then slice around cover using the immobilized Dakini as both blast pylon since Sixth Sense doesn't help much when there's a friend blocking the view.

    I've been entertaining this possibility myself, but with KHD being nearly guaranteed in my meta the possibility of getting close with a hacker is too slim to put 41 points into.
     
    #67 Mahtamori, Jun 19, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2019
  8. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    The idea here would be to set up a template lynchpin with the immobilised Dakini/Unidron, allowing you to place the shot on it with an uncontested shot from it's perspective:

    If memory serves me right, if your target wins the FTF, the template doesn't even appear, so everyone else gets away scott free.
     
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  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    One of the bigger changes from N2 to N3.

    In current edition, the template attacks all under the template using MODs from main target. The attacker's rolls are compared individually to each opponent's roll (if the ARO declared produces a Face to Face).
    Hence,
    3. Zhencha declares Move, peeking out on Dakini, moving back into Total Cover.
    4. Dakini with LOF declares they will delay declaration due to Sixth Sense. Dakini 2 through 4 declares they will delay declaration due to Sixth Sense.
    5. Zhencha places template on Dakini with LOF, touching Dakini 1, 2, 3, and 4. Dakini 5 is out of range/sight.
    6. Dakini 2 through 4 can not declare BS Attack since Dakini 1 is providing total cover to Zhencha. Dakini 1 through 4 ddeclares Dodge.
    7. Measuring, the Zhencha determines MODs for attack is +6 for range and -3 for Mimetism with no Cover for a total of BS 15. Dakini determines MOD to Dodge due to no LOF is cancelled by Sixth Sense. Dakini 4 and 5 is determined to be out of Zone of Control and Dakini 4's ARO declaration is thus invalid (invalidly delayed declaration)
    Zhencha rolls 3 and 13. Two hits.
    Dakini 1 rolls 7 (crit) and avoids all attacks
    Dakini 2 rolls 5 and avoids 1 attack
    Dakini 3 rolls 12 and fails
    Dakini 4 doesn't roll.
    8. Dakini 2 makes 1 ARM roll, Dakini 3 and 4 makes 2 ARM rolls. Dakini 1 realizes they forgot to declare move trajectory during Dodge declaration and remains in place.
    9. Surviving Dakini 2 through 4 may choose to fail Guts. Dakini 5 may turn around to face Zhencha using Warning! if they weren't already.
     
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  10. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

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    For me, this thread is about the weakness of exposing 80% of your army points to E/M (&hacking).
    You would think, why do you even build such a shitty list?
    Well, running the Zuyong Core with 14 orders for me is the main reason to play Invincible Army. And CB encouraged us to build lists like that when they gave that army the extra orders while removing almost all gimmicks to keep it balanced.
    So, imho you have three options.
    1.) Live with the threat of having your army immobilized before the game even started.
    2.) Build lists without Zuyong. These lists are more powerful, but very boring not the reason I for myself like to play IA.
    3.) Do not play IA.

    I for myself tend to use Option 2 and sometimes one, but it does not feel great.

    To add some anecdotal reference, I once played a game where my opponent had his 4+ link with a hacker in the Armory while the door where still closed. Literally the only option to get to that room was the doctor, because he wasn't hackable. (I did not play the Zuyong Core with KHD in that list)
    Now think of having your Zuyong Core in that same room while the enemy uses its cheap units to flood it with E/M weapons. Happy dodging!

    tl;dr: There are armies out there that consist of 80% HI for a reason and this is a vulnerability thats too high if you aim for a good placement in your local tournament.
     
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  11. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    I've had a similar impression, having used Dart a lot in Acon.

    If someone's investing an entire Order pool's worth of Orders into Dart, 9 times out of 10, she's spending most of those orders moving, or spec firing grenades and hoping to get lucky. She's an awesome unit, but any profile that requires you to get within 8 inches for full effect is going to be insanely Order inefficient. She's much better hunting specific targets... Going after LTs hiding on buildings, Datatrackers trying to stay alive, etc. I just find the SMG is too limited a weapon for her to kill her way through a backline.

    Speaking generally:
    Dart's still better optimized than a Zencha, but at least the Zencha has capabilities that vary its role and allow it to contribute to a mission without requiring such intense order expenditure (um... Specialist, anyone?)

    On the topic of E/M:
    E/M is a danger to every unit that isn't a non-HI Veteran. I don't understand the fixation on E/M as a specific HI counter, when E/M is pretty crippling to all but a very small subset of units. Yes, HI also suffer IMM-2, but if a critical unit gets Isolated, it's pretty much done unless you have very, very special plans for using their 1 Order.

    On the topic of Hacking:
    AHDs are a thing. Smart players just keep their AHDs hidden until they've taken out the 1 KHD that most players take as a Soft Counter. I think a lot of Metas forget how powerful an AHD can be.
     
    #71 barakiel, Jun 19, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2019
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  12. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    I play darts in Acon usually with mines. Not sure if she does better than a Naga with shotgun but she usually does exactly what I want her to do. Also played her in MO but it's harder since there is less midfield presence to protect her if I don't start. But thanks to climbing plus she can start prone on a roof.

    MSV 1 helps her a lot to hunt other skirmishers, Intruders etc. With camo she usually take 3 orders to reach enemy DZ. Then she has enough order to kill 3 or 4 models and recamo.

    With mines you can use a lot of usual skirmisher tricks and help her survive longer.

    IDK ... I like her. Hey barakiel, have you seen my post about SMG price where I tagged you ? Any thoughts ? I'm asking cause I value your opinion.
     
  13. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    @Marduck
    Sure, I'll send you a PM. That other thread has moved on 4-5 pages, and it's kind of off topic for this thread.
     
  14. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

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    AHDs with a well placed pitcher can be painful, but with IA, you have that Tinbot B for protection and a cheap linkable killer hacker. So its not that big of a deal for IA.
     
  15. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Agreed, my 'normal' vanilla YJ list pre-IA was Daofei+2xGuilang, so I'd seriously run 2x or 3xDarts as a 'normal' thing and think nothing of it. Now, I might even run Daofei+2xGuilang+2xZhencha, so potentially 5xDarts as a 'normal' list.


    Not just that, but having your entire list be hackable and EM vulnerable.



    Exactly!


    The super-premium HI (S5s, HacTao/Swiss, Aquila/Hsien, Su Jian, etc) are good.

    The Frenzy HI are OK, but really illustrate an issue with the mechanics and points system. Frenzy is not a disadvantage while in a link team, so the link team is some 25+pts cheaper than it should be. (How much is Frenzy actually worth, anyway?)



    Totally agree with this.

    It's less obvious in MO, since MO doesn't have the 1W+NWI HI, and probably half or more of an MO list is Order Sergeants anyways.

    It's painfully obvious in IA, because damn near every model in the list is hackable and EM vulnerable. Yeah, Zanshi aren't generally hackable, but REMs are.



    Potentially, quite a bit. One of my favorite HI in early N2 was a Haramaki combi (Impetuous/Regular). You were going to spend an order or two on it, anyway, though not being able to take cover is an issue.



    Agreed.


    Exactly.

    The fluff-stated design of the Invincible Army was to use lots and lots of power armor:
    And yet the 'best' IA lists seem to be built around a Zanshi Core.

    That's just not right. Infinity has been pretty good about making the unit's rules match their fluff (much more than GW or Privateer Press), so IA needs to be viable when 100% of the models on table are hackable and EM vulnerable.

    Invincible Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10
    DĀOYĪNG Lieutenant L2 Hacker (Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 29)
    TAI SHENG Mk12, Chain-colt, Stun Grenades / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 45)
    ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Haris, Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 34)
    ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Duo, Tactical Awareness) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1.5 | 38)
    HǍIDÀO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 26)
    KOKRAM FTO (Fireteam: Duo) Combi Rifle + E/Mitter, Chain-colt, E/Mauler / 2 Heavy Pistols, Knife. (0 | 39)
    HǍIDÀO Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 28)
    YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    ZHĒNCHÁ (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, D.E.P., Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 34)
    WÈIBĪNG Yaókòng Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16)
    PANGGULING (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)

    2.5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    That's 7x HI, one hackable MI as LT, and two REMs. That's a valid, fairly usable list, as long as you're not facing EM weapons.

    If hacking and EM vulnerability is ~5pts a model, this list is effectively 250pts at an ITS event.
     
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  16. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    From what I can tell this is due people only taking one or two hackers and have be buff rems or push buttons and not actually trying to leverage the toolbox offered by hacking, or they halfheartedly attempt it without protecting the AHD (normally by taking it in place of the KHD as opposed to along side it) and wondering why it fails completely.

    For the last couple of months I've been playing HI pain train/ combat REM heavy lists almost exclusively and have recently started cutting KHDs from my list because people just don't bother with hacking so its not a threat a I need to be concerned with.

    As for E/M unless you're staring down Emily, Raoul(maybe), Druze or TAK you aren't going to see more than one or two models with E/M. Also, providing you get the jump of them or you have the HI properly defended, you normally have the chance to take them down before they get a chance to E/M you, or they get killed on the approach through mines, Koalas and other forms of ARO.
    In a vacuum E/M is a massive counter but once you factor in that most lists only take a handful of models with it and your own list and tactics it's not as big a threat as most people believe, still a threat to be cognisant of and respected but no different from pretty much any other weapon out there.
     
  17. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    It has some weird breakpoints, but for Riot Grrls it looks to be about a 15-20% reduction of their total point cost.

    For Hospitallers, getting +6CC, MA2, DA CCW, +1WIP, and +3BTS still leaves them at 5 points less than Orcs for the base profile, which is why I believe it has different breakpoints. (Unless their new point reduction was something else, in which case it's still a bit bigger reduction than riot grrls.)
     
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  18. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    So, you think Riots should be about 36pts base?

    The Hospitaliers suggest that they're getting about a 25-33% discount due to Frenzy.
     
  19. RecklessPrudence

    RecklessPrudence Well-Known Member

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    Question: If CB went for the 'hacking support buffs HI', do you think you'd still need the power armour to be in range of the hacker, or do you think power armour would be retroactively supplied with integrated mini-repeaters that don't giive any range beyond the frame of the armour, but allow for infowar support from hackers maybe not anywhere on the board, but with an extended range over the normal 8" or so?
     
  20. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    It'd probably end up depending on the buff and whether or not it is designed to be a global effect or not.