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The Heavy Infantry Problem

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Weathercock, Jun 15, 2019.

  1. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Depends, they have that frustrating Aleph "bonus" of denying you most of your secret objectives.... silver linings aside, they are not the same, but are not less durable by much, always dependant on usage of course, forward isolated elements might as well be dead, back supported elements less so, still always better to have two wounds, but it is more expensive and for some units, not that necessary on most cases.
     
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  2. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

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    As you might have written that in reply to my post, I'd like to point out that I said that E/M weapons make me consider taking large quantities of HI. Taking a HacTao / Swiss Guard / Kriza etc. was never a problem as they are single models and might even have a marker state to protect them.
     
  3. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    We actually already are. Buy a Kanren Minelayer and a Crane Rank who isn't physically able to fail his Sensor roll and leave the rest to the Guilangs/Rui Shi's to mop up the place. I mean, it's up to you whether or not you want to take this route but the option is certainly there.
     
  4. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    Elite HI with Marker State, ultra high stats and/or unique skills are probably never going to be bad. However, I think you can count on the fingers of one hand the number of HI models that can fit into that category. What is a 'problem' (it's more of a nuisance, really) is the fact most the HI models (Mobile Brigadas and their similar ones) just feel lackluster in a world where people can pay 30 points for a model that's only slightly less durable but packs way more punch.
     
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  5. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    I have played a lot of HI with my tunguska, and hacking is more of a little nuisance than a true problem. In fact, I see hacking (except for hkd and support) more lackluster than HI in overal. Too much power in reset and stealth HI (in more than 20 games, maybe hacking was a problem in 2 or 3 of them)

    E/M is more of a problem, but is not so common to see them compared with other tools used against HI
     
  6. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    I mean, that is a fair point...
    Cranes have always been my favorite ''I hate your midfield units'' unit.

    Like, how is the enemy gonna ARO...? They dodge, they get unopposed Shock Ammo shots. They shoot one shot back? They eat two Nanopulsers.

    They get approached from behind? That mighty fist of the angry Crane is superb for strangulation.
     
  7. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    CB seems to share the assessment of generic Heavy Infantry not being very good. That's why ORCs, Brigada, Suryats, Jannisaries have all gotten revised link options. It doesn't help them much in Vanilla, but that's just the nature of creating units in a linkable/non-likable context.

    ORC vs Bagh Mari in Acon is a great example of good internal balance of linkable option in a Sectorial. For me, that was a great example of never fielding ORCs, to fielding them in 50% of army lists. Quite a decent adjustment.
     
  8. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    You are absolutely correct when talking about 0-3x HI in a list. People are taking the really good HI, the Hac Tao/Swiss Guard and whatnot. That's not where you see the problem.

    But when you start taking more than that, like in MO or IA, HI become problematic. Very problematic. If your entire list gets IMM2ed by EM weapons, you are screwed by Nomads and Haqq. If your way to fix IMM2 is also EM-vulnerable, that's an even bigger problem (people IMM2 your engineer first, then EMP everyone else).



    It would have been nice to have that as a designer's note, in that case. "Yeah, we tried Zencha as shock-immune, but that was too good against the usual midfield troops so we had to remove it."

    Remember, all we got was a list of new profiles, no designers notes. And at the same time, discovered that two units we had been told were part of IA were not.
     
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  9. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    That's obviously not the case because Dart.
     
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  10. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    The comparison between those two is really a painful one for the poor Zhencha. I may love the Zhencha when I play YJ, but for a unit so similar, I'd happily drop the Zhencha in a heartbeat for Dart. How the hell are these troopers allowed to cost the same price?
     
  11. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    I really don't get this thread. HI are often great. Particularly so linked, but also the bigger bad boys solo. A full second wound and higher stats (especially along with a powerful weapon) adds power and redundancy to do things that less tough units are just incapable of. Like take a wound and still hold the line, or take two and fall prone behind cover to be healed. The value of that, played well is hard to overstate, it adds a stability to a force that is very valuable in a game with dice rolls as swingy as Infinity.

    KHDs have more or less killed off the hacking threat to them, making them stronger. While e/m is a significant threat, it's only really replaced hacking in this regard, and HI can exert a lot of board control through dangerous long range fire superiority to make that difficult to get at them with mostly very short ranged e/m. Sure if you put HI in a close position to get e/m'd before dealing with it they're going to suffer. That's part of playing the game. Anything valuable you just plonk on the table without a specific plan to exploit the strengths of is probably going to suffer. They're not an I win button.

    I dunno about you but in my meta Hollowmen, Riot Girl, Tanko, Janissary, Father Knight type ML defensive links are very strong (as is the HI HMG / Spitfire at range in active), and mixed links like Crane, Hsien, Brigada, Orc, Asawira + little buddies dominate active firefights. Then stuff like Swiss, Achilles etc just wreck whole armies by themselves, played well.

    Also, the super optimised profiles CB have released for some of the new sectorials can make some of the older ones suffer too. But that's not a purely HI problem. It's a general power creep issue.

    If any troop classification struggles in general IMHO, it's still Medium Infantry - outside the again optimised profiles (like the proxy mk5) who get around or for some reason just ignore the general downsides of MI (slow movement, much higher cost with little extra durability compared to LI). Even with the season 10 Bravery rule this is still the case in many cases (outside a few troops that benefit disproportionately). A lot of them could use a rework along the lines of what Bolts got, and maybe even Shock Immunity baked into being MI for free to make them a better durability step between LI and HI.
     
    #51 Hachiman Taro, Jun 19, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2019
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  12. Xeurian

    Xeurian Well-Known Member

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    While I understand most folks may not be looking to field/pay for more than one, the rational could have had something to do with the Zencha being AVA 4 in IA while Dart is AVA 1.
     
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  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    That's a poor way to balance things. Of note, it's part of why Dart is frequently run in the forces that can take her, while the Zhencha is more situational. It's also more than a little lore-breaking.
     
  14. Xeurian

    Xeurian Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure that it is, looking at it in a bit of a hypothetical vacuum as we are anyways... If you look at something think it has a decent combo, (ignoring all else) the potential for 4 in a single list puts far more strain on the system than just 1. Out of the two options, you are likely to scale back the one that can be deployed 4 times in a single list. That way, if the combo is indeed above the curve, it doesn't break too too much.
     
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  15. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    But in Infinity, where you can potentially funnel 10 orders through a specific mini, just having one on the table is enough to cause a problem. There's diminishing returns to taking most things in Infinity.

    So lowering AVA is a nerf to power level is IMO shortsighted. How many Darts would people run?
     
  16. SpectralOwl

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    Knowing how much YJ players like the similar Guilang, a version with more kill power would probably be take about twice per list even without Specialist. Dart's far closer to the Daofei in terms of power for half the price, that unit is an abomination for balance.
     
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  17. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Yup. Given Dart, it's highly questionable that the Zhencha doesn't have Shock Immunity.
     
  18. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    I still see people here arguing about those supposed "higher stats" on HI, and I repeat that's no longer true. Or maybe that's no longer true only for YJ's His, I dunno anymore, but just look at Zencha/Zuyong/Haidao/Liu Xing, and I suppose the new Janissaries are the same?


    Being hackable and E/M vulnerable was ok when the HI tag actually meant the unit had better stats, but that's no longer the case and I think that's what's being discussed here
     
    #58 Benkei, Jun 19, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2019
  19. RecklessPrudence

    RecklessPrudence Well-Known Member

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    I am 100% behind making the baseline for HI higher. Whether that's through turning Hackable into a discount but making up the difference with secondary weapons or skills to make them more capable, or by giving all but KHDs Supportware that boosts them (and TAGs), thus giving more incentive to bring non-KHD Hackers as well, either one I'd be happy with! And I say this as an Aleph player who doesn't have access to much HI apart from the high-end stuff - I'd love to see more HI across the table, not just the odd one or two high-end ones unless you're playing IA or MO! This is a military science-fiction game, let's make one of the staples of milsci-fi not feel like a handicap to the unit wearing it!
     
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  20. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    So the discussion is only about a few recent 'light' HI profiles?

    Those specific profiles might be underwhelming based on those concerns, and more unhackable 2 wound or 1 wound NWI+Shock Immune LI etc being released might be a bit much, especially with highly optimised profiles in addition.

    But if that is the real concern this is an odd way to express that in the OP then....

    Plenty of HI seem more than fine just the way they are.

    Portraying some specific concerns that seem to be more about disparities of approach between essentially IA and Ramah as a broader problem seems a little counter productive.

    Surely the real solution is to make the specific profiles that are over or under costed for effect better costed for their effect rather than messing with HI in general.
     
    #60 Hachiman Taro, Jun 19, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2019