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The Heavy Infantry Problem

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Weathercock, Jun 15, 2019.

  1. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    White faceplate units were supposed to be for the Svalarheima army iirc, not the invincible army.
     
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  2. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    And if we expand our scope out further to some other recent HI releases ( Lets say as far back as IAs release. ):

    Patsy has 2W.
    Gwailos have 2W.
    Hortlaks have 1W+NWI.

    So, so far 50% of all the new HI since Varuna/IA, including Varuna/IA, have been without the full 2 Wounds.

    And out of the 5 who do have the full 2 Wounds, 3 are character variations of pre-existing 2W HI. Meaning that technically, only 20% of all these new HI units have 2 Wounds without that being mandated due to them being character variations of 2W units. ( And even one of them is a complete re-work of an old 2W Shavastii HI unit. ).

    Whilst as far as new 1W+NWI Shock Immune/2W non-HI units that have released since Varuna/IA, the list is as follows:

    Mukhtars and Namurrs for Ramah are NWI+Shock/Total Immune.
    Hasht in Shasvastii gets NWI Shock Immune.
    Sheskin gets full 2 Wounds.
    Valkyrie and Hannibal in Foreign Company are NWI +hock/Total Immune.

    So 5 new NWI+Immunities and 1 new 2W unit.
     
  3. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    Dao Fei always were the Recon Section of the Invincible Army until they decided to retcon it because Yu Jing. And I think you knew this already.
     
    #23 Benkei, Jun 16, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
  4. SpectralOwl

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    Furiously paints Swiss Guard's and Asawira Doctor's heads white
     
  5. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, and the fluff for the Daofei printed in N3 is:
    Emphasis mine. That's the same fluff that has been there since N1.

    Also, the Tiger Soldier Dossier released with Red Veil explicitly states "Invincible Army." We told new players wanting to buy stuff that would specifically be usable in IA to buy Tiger Soldiers!


    At this point, my feeling is that CB lied to us about what would be in IA, and I am NOT happy about it. :imp::imp::imp: IA gets 1W+NWI troops that pay extra for abilities because they're HI, while Ramah Task Force gets 1W+NWI troops that pay LI prices and Aleph gets damn near their entire list with 1W+NWI paying LI or MI prices for those same abilities.

    Seriously, WTF, CB?!? :imp::imp::imp:
     
  6. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    Be fair to Aleph, we pay for elite stats on our NWI stuff and it shows. And we usually don't get Shock/Bio immunity except in the two new aditions that fit Aleph lore as well as Star Wars movie fits Star Trek universe.
     
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  7. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    I do want to point out that this problem does exist beyond IA. They're definitely the most notable on the receiving end of things, being supposedly built around heavy infantry while also a fairly recent and extremely flawed entry. But the heavy infantry problem exists for many factions, and this isn't a thread to complain about or address the issues of the IA itself, but the problems facing heavy infantry and the hackable trait as a whole.

    To build upon the hacking programs suggestion that I made in the original post, here are a few ideas that could be built upon it as an example (to kill two birds with one stone, you could provide these augmentative programs to assault hacking devices to give them some much needed utility and value):

    Overdrive (Supportware)
    Entire order skill
    • Target allied Heavy Infantry trooper in the hacker's hacking area with the Hackable trait gains the Hyperdynamics L1 skill (if they already have this skill, they gain Hyperdynamics L2 instead). Additionally, add 2" to their first MOV value.
    • The effects of Overdrive persist until the end of the next Player Turn after declaring this program, at which point the affected model must make a BTS roll versus damage 10.
    • Failing this BTS roll will cause the affected trooper to enter the IMM-1 state for the duration of the next Player Turn.

    Undead (Supportware) (GIVE THIS ONE TO THE DAOYING HACKER AS AN UPGRADE)
    Entire order skill
    • Target Unconscious allied Heavy Infantry or TAG trooper in the hacker's army list gains the V:Dogged trait, and enters the V: Dogged state.
     
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  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    May be so, but they still managed to stick one of those three white faceplate units you are referring to in IA. And paint white faceplates on half the ISS starter and curiously on one Yu Jing coloured JSA unit.

    But let's not make this thread about Yu Jing, we've got plenty of that specifically in Yu Jing subforum.

    Bottom line is that a Heavy Infantry is less and less fine the more you bring of them. One HI means you don't have your entire plan resting on one Hackable vessel and you can work around the problem - meaning for low-HI count forces HI really are fine, less so for forces meant to have several of them. Stealth also becomes proportionally more important on HI. It really skews things for little benefit to the player fielding HI.
     
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  9. archon

    archon Well-Known Member

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    I think HI is still a good thing. And things like the new Haq Supersoldiers benefit from the 2nd fake wound, but are dead after loosing this. So heaving 2 real wounds still counts something. And NWI (without shockimm) was a thing from the beginning of Aleph in HS 2nd ed. At the moment CB tends a bit too often for NWI with shockimm for my taste. And yes Aleph has the better fake HI ;-) They are still in a HI priceband.

    In my last games with IA I found out that Zuyong have a good staying power and even the even the fake HIs has their benefits, as you can eat a template, kill the wielder and continue to go button pushing or thread even more enemys. But not heaving a true 2nd wound means they are dead and gone after taking a second hit, while I can doctor my Zuyongs up. I one game I even heal my Haidao Sniper up (costing me a Cmd-Token).

    So the only troop, that came close to HI without suffering the downside of beeing hackable are the Yadu.

    But I agree, that "beeing hackable" should have a good side besides of Fairydust and some rare used EVO programms.
     
  10. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    You've highlighted the problem though -- NWI + Shock Immune is better if you plan on moving a unit up the table beyond the range where doctoring is an effective tactic, because it doesn't leave an unconscious body for your opponent to do their classified on. And as you pointed out, the difference for NWI+SI units is just that you have to doctor them after one wound instead of two.

    Being able to eat 2W and still potentially be doctored is nice, but if you're in a situation where that's what you're relying on, you probably are already losing...
     
  11. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    The biggest problem here is optimization. I've had this discussion a lot recently and I still get the feeling CB just discovered how to optimize models and are going overboard with it.

    1W+NWI is NOT better than 2 wounds, hackable or not. However, it is certainly cheaper, even if you tack on Shock or BioImmunity. This means they can minmax the profiles, tweak them until they cost exactly what they want. And while I don't think it's a bad thing, it annoys the hell out of me as someone whose main army does NOT get these same minmaxed units (I mostly play MAF, with some Bakunin every now and then).

    And this is the big deal: Most 2 Wound HI are not optimized at all. They're 'generalist' pieces who can be quite useful and fun to play, but they feel lackluster compared to the shiny, creative and more importantly fun newer options. I would love to see new hacking programs dedicated to buffing HI like they can buff remotes (hell, can you imagine if Assisted Fire worked on HI?) but I think it's more realistic for CB to just review their goddamn formula already and give us a points rebalance on all the 'generalist' models.
     
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  12. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    I'd also add rethinking their roles into the mix. "HI Lite" are a good platform for units focused on recon, mobility, support, special operations, budget versions (IAs new designs are good examples of this). Standard HIs might be generalists, but they're also more of a frontline units, with increased protection, power capacity, able of mounting heavier weaponry and greater load in general; they should be more liberally equipped with secondary weapons - DTWs, shotguns, LGLs, Panzerfausts, Flammenspeers, twin weapons, maybe new kind of Smart weaponry, etc. SHIs are pretty well positioned at the moment, I think - they're the assault/breach or heavy fire support units.

    As for the hacking support - new Supportware would be rad. I can see hackers boosting HI sensor suite, automated response systems, re-routing paths affected by E/M or Jammer... the possibilities are there, especially if we throw EVO into the mix.
     
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  13. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

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    Only benefit of having HI units: The armor looks cool and you don't have to paint faces/eyes.
    Sadly the availability of E/M weapons makes taking HI in large numbers to a tournament a gamble. Hacking is not a problem imho as you always can reset out of immobilization or still give ARO while isolated.
     
  14. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Just to add something here, the IMM-2 state is now much more common than before (where nearly only Nomads had it), and a lot of new skirmishers/AD get weapons to impose those, pointing to some strange intent from CB to remove HI from the tables (intentional or not).
     
  15. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    I think you are taking a lot of shortcut here.

    Are HI uncompetitive generally speaking ? I strongly disagree. HI tend to have much better stats than other troopers for a bargain in points. And sometime you just need something very strong to destroy this annoying ARO piece, whatever the cost of the tool. Since when are the Suiss Guard / Hac Tao / Kriza Borak / Achilles bad ? I tend to see HI models in a lot of good players list. If the proliferation of hacking and EM is stopping you from taking HI that is more likely a local meta thing. At least that is not what I'm witnessing at all.

    Generally speaking saying that 2 wounds HI are bad or uncompetiteve is also just wrong. My understanding is that Riot girl and Hollow men FT are perfoming pretty well in the last major US tournament. It is also very common to have an HI in a line troop link in a lot of good players lists (Orco with fusiliers or regulars, Mobile Brigada with Alguaciles, etc ...). Their main advantage compared to 1W+NWI troopers is that they can take two hits, fall unconcious, and still be healed / repaired. Btw, having one of these strong ARO piece is probably one of the best answer to E/Marat, EM grenade, hacking and jammer as all of them are short range tools.

    I would agree that some 2 wound not HI profiles or 1W+NWI HI profiles are very optimized and perform well, especially compared to old fashioned HI like Orco, Mobile brigada, Janissary and Shang ji that need a linetroopers FT to justify their cost. But sometime these old fashioned HI are all you get in a sectorial and they provide a usefull tool.

    Finally, this idea that HI or even TAG are useless is something that comes back to the forum very often. Maybe that is just my local meta but I don't think these assertions are true. In my book, HI lists and TAG are very efficient counter to order spam as long as you handle the few threat that the other list has.
     
  16. Aspect Graviton

    Aspect Graviton Friendly Alien Overlord
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    This thread has entirely focussed on the drawbacks of HI but what about the positives?

    They are obviously vulnerable to hacking however they also have the potential become almost unassailable to it.
    If you're playing YJ drop a Haidao KHD into a link with a Deflector L2 or try the same with a zhanying hacker and Hsien harris with a def L2. I've played into both of those recently with hacking centric CA lists and it's definately a considerable step up in difficulty. You can also add a sprinkle of Kaledoscope or fairy dust to taste. If you want a hacking deathstar put it in a HI link it can keep you're paintrain safe but it also kicks in nerd face.

    There is also the threat of being potatoed by EM weapons but at the same time against most troops you're looking at isolation anyway and what do HI have to counter with? usually a nice better than 50% odds lump of phy with a helping of kinematica or hyperdynamics and if it gets through you're generally going to have some BTS. It's also easier to get a HI back from potato state than it is to doctor back a model in the dead state.

    There are a couple of corner cases where LI suddenly get HI good but in the case of sheskin she's at the end of the day an arm 1 2W model with a severe fire allergy, the only model I feel she can adequately be stacked up against is Achillies the S2 TAG. And at the moment I still don't take her anyway

    Zhencha rock, they have a niche and I think they're quite comfortable there, I'd certainly like shock immunity but I don't feel crippled when I put one on the table due to it's absence.
     
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  17. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
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    Actually I think lack of Simmune is purely done by balance issues. If Zhencha dont give a fk about mines, well, daily skirmishers will have a heck hard times.
     
  18. Sedral

    Sedral Invincible Officier

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    It's not though. You can spend command token to reroll a failed doctor roll, you can't do that to repair an HI with your engineer.

    What you point out aren't good sides, they're just way to mitigate the bad ones. The only real positive aspect about HI is the better statline. And while better BS, PH, ARM, BTS and ofc W is nice, it also comes at a premium price.
     
  19. Aspect Graviton

    Aspect Graviton Friendly Alien Overlord
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    Well I'd take argument with the command re-roll as you can't doctor a dead model as it is in fact dead:
    [​IMG]

    Also if you fail the repair roll on a HI nothing happens and you just do it again. Also if you get bricked you're still not dead, you are a scoring model, in quadrant control a bricked HI is still better than a dead model or an unconscious non shasvastii model.

    Better anything in this game comes at an increased price, that's why these arguments happen.

    Also please Re-read my comment on building a hacking deathstar, that's not a way to mitigate a risk, it's an offensive strategy:

    Invincible Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]5
    SHÀNG JÍ Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0.5 | 43)
    TAI SHENG (Chain of Command) Breaker Combi Rifle, Chain-colt + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 49)
    HǍIDÀO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 26)
    PANGGULING FTO (Repeater) Light Shotgun / Electric Pulse. (0 | 13)
    ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Duo, Tactical Awareness) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1.5 | 38)

    2 SWC | 169 Points

    Open in Infinity Army


    There we are an offensive link which features a KHD, an AHD a built in -6 to hacking attempts and a repeater you can edge into range of targets to get a firewall which is also defended by the -6. if somebody wants to play TAGs or REMs into that they're welcome to do so.

    *Edit, helps if you put a HMG in that link team rather than a haris again :)
     
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  20. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    What USED to be the main positive about HI was the second Wound. And trust me, the second wound is amazing when you consider the fact it lets you outright say ''Fuck you and your fucking chain rifle ARO, I'm walking past it either fucking way.''
    Being able to tank a hit with effectively little to no consequence is great.
    That being said, this is no longer a benefit exclusive to ( Used to be the closest thing to this was Ariadna WBs and Tarik, but now it's expanded into several more units that simulate the main benefit of HI, the effective second wound. ) and unanimous among HI units ( Seeing as now 1 Wound HI are no longer an Ariadna thing. ), but their greater access to it still remains their main saving grace.

    And you can't really say they get better access to higher grade stats: this only really rings true with BTS, as high-ARM and high-BS/PH units exist in the MI unit categories as well.

    TL;DR: At the end of the day, HI are simply like any other unit in the game with the only real differences being that they are hackable and they tend to have effectively 2 or more Wounds around ~90% of the time.

    Sad thing that recent HI model releases have been having their face plates taken off or raised up.

    Yeah, if the Zhencha did have Shock Immunity, then Yu Jing would become the premier Skirmisher bullying faction ( What with MSV1 Guilangs and Daofeis/Zhenchas running about the midfield. ).
     
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