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The Heavy Infantry Problem

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Weathercock, Jun 15, 2019.

  1. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    Positive programms outside of Fairy Dust? Something like a +3 to discover rolls and another one to become a specialist operative or to get +3 MODs for objective rolls?
     
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  2. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    That is a really, really cool idea.

    A Gadget program that gives a Hackable trooper +3 to Discover

    A Gadget program that gives a Hackable trooper +3 to Dodge

    A Gadget program that makes a Hackable trooper a Specialist

    Yes. I would play the hell out of that.
     
    #322 Savnock, Jul 4, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2019
  3. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect
    Warcor

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    I might go for a gadget program that grants sixth sense 2 for solo HI pieces like my Charontids. That would be amazing.
     
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  4. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
    Moderator

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    Depends on what premise and context you view the slogan, then it is and it is not, true.

    In a pure literal way it will never be true one can make a list that can never win, for example a non specialist list in an objectives mission.

    But in the premise it is used and the context it it used for is that in contrast with most wargames that are strategic and a list or list match-up can win or loose a game before it starts, Infinity is a tactical game placing more importance to the usage of the list elements hence the game cannot be decided on the list building or match up, but on the actual gameplay.

    The quote was conceived because the vast majority of new players coming here are asking the things that were familiar to them from other game systems they know of, what lists are winning, and are confusion over veterans either saying there are no such lists or suggesting tactical combos and multi utility units.

    So yes, while it is theoretically possible to make (purposefully) a list that cannot win and it is possible to have a match-up that will make the possibilities to win easier or harder, the list itself will not be the determining factor but its usage.
     
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  5. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    First of all, I think that's becoming less and less true - running CHA or JSA into VIRD seems like an exercise in frustration. But my point is actually that it's almost always "It's you *and* your list." Telling people to "git gud" when running into, for example, a Kamau sniper in a core fireteam is pointless without instructing them in the tools that can be used to attack that kind of thing (Like, in CHA's situation, Cherry).
     
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  6. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Oh I would not disagree with that, hard to fit on a catchy slogan though.
     
  7. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    A Charontid would be an excellent test case for whether one of these programs could be too strong. Or Achilles. If it's not too strong on them, it shouldn't be overpowered anywhere else.

    With that in mind, SSL2 wouldn't be too crazy on a Charontid or Blondie IMO. For either one of them, you probably don't want to get into a straight up gunfight anyways. Then again, it could neutralize half or more of most lists' decent approaches to killing Aleph's Favorite or The Nastiest of EI Bodies. Hmmm.
     
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  8. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Reducing the cost of Hackable ARM would be one of the simpler fixes.

    I would really like Gadget programs for HI and maybe TAGs (basic TAGs have issues, too...)
     
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  9. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    The thing that has to be considered is how to keep buffs from making top performers (like Achilles or the Cutter) totally curve-blowingly good. A limited selection of Gadget programs that add utility and defense rather than offensive power would probably work best.

    Buffing TAGs... hmmm. A Guijia is still a tank if a boring one. Would making it SSL2 or giving it +3 to Dodge make it too good? Probably not. But an Avatar? I dunno.

    I kinda hope most TAGs get Tactical Awareness someday, though.
     
  10. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    ¿Porque no los dos?

    Would both a cut in the cost of ARM on hackable targets (or even just HI) at the lower end of the scale (say 3 and 4, not 5 or above) -plus- Gadget programs to buff HI be too much?
     
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Has to tread the line between being worth spending and order and not pushing too far. Assisted Fire is an example of being possibly far too beneficial while giving a single trooper +3 Dodge is a waste of an order - even giving all Hackable +3 Dodge is a bit... weak... for an order. In my opinion.
    And keeping in mind that REMs are also Hackable and thanks to Supportware they are in a fairly comfy place.

    Suggestions:
    Puppetteer - Entire Order, activates the Hacker and one Heavy Infantry. The Heavy Infantry executes one Short Skill using the Hackers skills and abilities but the Heavy Infantry's equipment. During this skill, the Heavy Infantry counts as a specialist of the same type as the Hacker. (Make any HI a specialist for an order, gets intentionally funky with certain hackers, especially spec ops)
    Red Line - Entire Order, Hacking Area, increases the movement attribute of one Hackable unit to 6-4 (make one Rambo into a Fast Rambo, intentionally not very fireteam compatible)
    Quarantine - Short skill, Hacking Area, automatically Resets all Hackable units. (More order efficient Reset, if you have repeaters for it)
     
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  12. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Well-Known Member

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    I do like the idea of buffs to other underpowered things through hacking, which is pretty marginal right now.

    Maybe 'Shock Absorber' +1/2 ARM for HI on the board, something like that if mid value ARM is overcosted (and I think a lot of people think so). MI have it worse if anything so maybe should work for them too. Or SSL2 works too.

    I'd love hacking to be able to do more utility stuff like open doors in hacking area, grant climbing+ or Martisls arts to certain units etc tbh. But that's a slightly different topic.
     
    #332 Hachiman Taro, Jul 5, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2019
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  13. Ceilican

    Ceilican Active Member

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    I like this. I'd also like something like
    Clear! - Target unconscious model with W. If model has a cube, it enters NWI State. If model has no cube, it enters Dogged State. Does not otherwise provide the Valor skill. Idea being that the hacker overrides the safety protocols in the suit's on-board medical suite.
    Zap - Target TAG performs an electric pulse attack. Something that would allow a TAG to become disentangled from CC.
     
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  14. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    It is a lot harder to know if HI Supportware would be balanced. Dropping the cost of Hackable ARM is much simpler to test and implement.
     
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  15. Tom McTrouble

    Tom McTrouble Well-Known Member

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    More HI supportware would be great. I really like almost all of the ideas presented.

    The only problem I can see with dropping the cost of Hackable ARM is that Karakuri (and probably others I haven't thought of, but that stands out) get disproportionately better. Other than that though, definitely a possible solution.
     
  16. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

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    Well, we've got the precedent with the cyberdancer for ghosting an independent friendly system. As a stage down, giving HD, DHD and WHD the ability to boost a single, specific HI in some manner or adding a hacking programme that lets them F2F with anyone attempting to hack any friendly HI, so you have to beat the reset and the hackers' defensive interference might be viable (hell, you could just let friendly hackers reset as well, with a penalty ofc).
     
  17. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    I think the "Heavy Infantry" problem stems from the same thing as a few other problems in the game - how units are designed and costed.

    In 2nd edition, HI were around +10pts and 4-2 movement. They canned the slow speed and gave them a cost reduction, but I feel they did not reduce the cost enough. Given that a lot of people are talking about "overvalued hackable ARM" I think many in this thread have come to the same conclusion. This was a clear case of the unit just being "too expensive" - but just because they got "a discount" doesn't mean the discount was deep enough.

    When I look at a combi Hospitaller for 32pts, and then a Zero for 18pts, I really struggle to justify the former. Stats are not better than camouflage/infiltration/mines, let alone twice the cost. And thats one of the better priced HI...

    Personally, part of that issue is the strong nature of camouflage skirmishers, but I do feel that is the benchmark that Infinity forces us to measure against. When pitted against high-teens costed models with these abilities, a vanilla HI should be down in the 20s for cost to even have a chance. More so if you want them to be viable outside of being link-fodder.

    (Also, I love the hacker boosts. Great way to bring vanilla hackers out in a meaningful way. I would perhaps make them hackable through their boosted target, to create more of a risk/reward system instead of them just being a buff casting cheerleader)
     
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  18. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I think if you then compare that cheap HI to other troops in the game, they'd then be overpowered - I think the overall thing is that marker state infiltrators are too cheap.
     
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  19. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Not disagreeing with the conclusion re; skirmishers at all, but I've come into the mindset that we overpay for strength on middling units. The orders system naturally rewards cheap orders and elite order spenders, and guys with "nice stats and combi rifle" has to work hard to earn their place.

    Imagine if the Hospitaller combi was say, 22 points (-1/3), would people put it to much use in vanilla? Would it be overbearing vs other choices in the faction. Not looking at Doctors, HMG etc, just the Plain Jane version as a quick case study.
     
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  20. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    I like the extra supportware for HD proposed here:
    Some extra random ideas (I have tried to keep the focus in the utility/defensive side):
    (GADGET) Servostabilizers: Target HI/REM, 2 turns. Being critically hit still make the trooper to lose the FTF roll, but the hit doesn’t skip the ARM/BTS/PH rolls to generate wounds/states. The trooper gains +1 PH and +1 CC.
    (GADGET) Overlooker (optional): Target HI, 2 turns, Hacking area. Activate HI also activate Hacker (Hacker idle), HI gains 360 vision and may dodge while engaged ignoring the LoF requisite. During ARO if this supportware is used, the Hacker cannot declare any ARO.


    (GADGET) Private Commlink: Target HI, Hacking area, 2 turns. While in (allied) Hacking Area, gain Veteran L1.
    (UPGRADE) Remote assistance: This program requires an Engineer or a Doctor in a non-null state in Hacking area. Hacker may use the Engineer (requires non-null Eng) or Doctor (requires non-null Doctor) abilities.
    (GADGET) Override: Target HI unconscious state, Hacking area, 2 turns. Activate HI also activate Hacker (Hacker idle). Hi can be activated in unconscious state, movement 4-4, use Hacker’s CC, BS and WIP. Hacker cannot ARO while this GADGET is active.


    (AHD / UPGRADE) Cybercloak: Target HI, Hacking area, NFB. HI enters in the IMP-2 state.
    (AHD / GADGET) Enhanced Sensor: HI gain Repeater and Sensor while not isolated; the trooper can’t use Sensor:Triangulated Fire unless he has also Sensor without this GADGET.


    (GADGET) CommandLink: Target HI, 2 turns: CommandLink1 + 1 turn: CommandLink2 (total 3 turns), Hacking area. HI gain NCO (CommandLink1) and Libero (CommandLink1 and 2).
    (GADGET): Power Up, 2 turns. HI generates an irregular order in addition to the order he normally generates and gains Kinematica 1.
    (EVO GADGET): Booster: HI and REM may benefice from more than 1 GADGET program at the same time. Those GADGET program doesn’t get cancelled after a set number of turns; this EVO-Hacker can maintain 1 EVO-GADGET and 1 GADGET program at the same time. Each HI program that target 1 HI can now support 2 different His at the same time.