If it's not % cost reduction, it's got a few different break points. I lean more towards % because it looks different between Hospitallers and Riot Grrls even though they're pretty close in cost.
Maybe, but from what I've been able to cross reference it's fairly close on Domaru and Riots. Hospitaller is in the suspect category for me, the recent MO update did some pretty funky things that I don't quite follow.
I personally think the issues with heavy infantry lie more in the counters that have cropped against them rather than the HI themselves. Overall, this game is far, far more lethal than it was with hyper efficient link teams (think Vet Kazak HMG with some Line Kazak cheerleaders or a Rui Shi and some bounty hunters) granting individually nasty gunfighters insane bonuses for little to no investment in points compared to the output. A prevalence of shock ammunition has cheapened the value of Dogged and NWI. Fatality L2 and Full Auto L2 have removed the need for certain pieces to have fireteams supporting them at all. Everything feels deadlier, even by Infinity standards, to the point I think any defensive link without at least Mimetism is wasted points because there will exist some unit that will be shooting at it with B5 and a BS of at least 13 with some nasty gun that will take it out in a round of shooting. So HI have this problem to contend with - of everything overall being more lethal - as well as hacking and an increased presence of EM ammunition that can utterly incapacitate them at little risk. If grenades were given a smaller blast than the (I think) 5" template, that could help the problem by limiting how many models can be placed under the template at a time. If BTS was more incremental than chunks of 3, or if there was an idea of hacking defense being different from BTS like how in N2 BTS subtracted from the roll of hackers then HI could become a bit more resilient. But ultimately, in a game ruled increasingly by hyper specialized profiles like Kamau snipers, Vet Kazak HMGs, Rui Shi spitfires, Hollow Men, the Kriza Borac, Tarik and Sheskin (with or without a link), there is less and less place for HI. I'm in favor of altering damage values across the board because I think it's a shame that we have this amazingly fine-tuned d20 system but most weapon values are 13-15. You could stand to create a little distinction between power armor and non-power armor and have support weapons scale up with the trooper that carries them so that LI heavy weapons are less powerful than HI heavy weapons which are less powerful than TAG heavy weapons. In general, though, I think you could opt to lower weapon damage to achieve the same effect as armor being useful (at the risk of people feeling cheated because "everything got nerfed"). I'd also like to see fireteams shift from giving raw stat bonuses like Burst and BS to more tactical maneuvering and joint activation. How that would work out I don't know, but it feels a bit ridiculous that a Kamau sniper on a roof with 4 prone Fusiliers behind him somehow grant all the bonuses. Same goes for really any fireteam where the main star of the link team is the only one that pokes his head out. Because right now, I can't think of a single model - HI or otherwise - that can survive a turn of shooting from some of the more streamlined and powerful link team options. A lot harder to feel like that HI model is tough when it gets removed because a single fireteam member poked its head out and fired 5 shots of some damage 14+ weapon at it.
I think a lot of this really nails it. Offensive output in the game has increased over the years. What if heavy infantry, the classification specifically limited wounds received to 1 in any single burst. This would provide distinction between MI and LI 2W or 1.8W troops as well as tone DA down in comparison to AP against these targets. It would be a pretty sizeable bump in survivability, and I think it should also be accompanied with the removal of rediculous cost reductions such as frenzy for certain profiles.
This doesn't make much sense to me. A linked full 2w good ARM HI is exactly the kind of unit that can survive these kind of very lethal long ranged attacks. So if anything they nerf 1W links. Say a Brigada ML at BS16 ARm7 in cover is very likely not to take 3 outright wounds from a B5 High BS HMG in a mixed link etc, and therefore be recoverable. I think more times than not shooting at a HI in cover dodging at 5 shots from my B5 Hsien through smoke, it has survived and dropped prone in total cover (either through the dodge or the guts) after holding me up like it was meant to. That's not likely the case for LI or MI or REMs. Similar with saying more shock nerfs NWI / dogged etc. That's actually another relative buff for true 2w things. And even with NWI shock immune things, the full 2w is very valuable comparitively if you don't wanna go dead, because falling prone unconscious in total cover and getting doctored is a strong thing, especially for high value troops.
I agree that a trigger which needs to be kept in mind for something to occur later can be annoying. Forgetting Vengeance in Warmachine happens to me too often... I would recommend a two sided token. One side to be put down immediately after the troop deals it's first wound, which is then flipped to the other to indicate that it is now impetuous. The app also handles frenzy with just a button press which is nice at least, even if it only helps you remember at your next order count and not through your opponents turn.
Yeah, one of the recurring themes of this thread has definitely been that there is a significant performance gap between optimized and unoptimized profiles, and that it can be especially evident on HI.
Shrug. No one seems to be able to pun down the same list of under performing HI.... Very much always seems to be "my HI are underperforming, everyone elses isnt" I mean between stupid cheap sub 30 pt profiles, mixed link options and efficient solo pieces what legitimately are the underpowered HI? Because its not ORCs Zuyongs or brigada anymore. Nor is it Swiss, kriza or al Fasid. Neither is it hollowmen riot grrls or hospitallers. If you take the multiple argumemts about what makes the good HI good as stated by some in this thread. (frenzy discount, good solo combination of tools or mixed links) youd be hard pressed to find a HI where at least one of these isnt an option
I feel like this conversation has been mostly constructive. I think that most of the "basic" HI are a little underpowered in a vacuum. Things like Brigadas, Orcs, Suryats, etc. There are other HI with similar stats that are cheaper due to discounts (Hospitallers, ...), or have overly focused/optimized stats (Hollow Men), or have particularly potent skill combinations (Kriza, ...) that are point-for-point better buys. Things like mixed fireteams are an attempt to give a lot of the basic HI a boost without costing as much as a full HI fireteam can. However, that only helps them in a very specific and narrow set of builds. I'm perfectly well aware that you and others have made HI-heavy forces work well. I'm not saying that HI is crap, or that they're unplayable, or anything along those lines. But I think there's a gap between certain categories of HI units, and I'd be happier if that gap were smaller.
Sure, Wasnt having a go at you tesla, the You was collective. Its still my opinion that HI are in a perfectly fine place, and what I stated above is a large part of why I dont really think any HI exist in hte game without a well defined role they are more than capable of achieving
Because "Your list won't win the game for you here, noob" isn't as polite. And that really is the case in 40k and WarmaHordes, there, your list CAN win the game for you. ORCs in Vanilla or NCA, where would you use them instead of a Swiss or Aquila, or even a Hospitalier? Zuyong in Vanilla, when would you take them and not even Wu Ming, let alone Hac Tao or Hsien? Zuyong in IA are painfully too expensive to allow useful variation in lists, even with cheap Haidao filling one slot in a Core. Janissaries in vanilla Haqq, where would you use them instead of Asawira or Ayyar or one of the 1W+NWI light infantry? Mobile Brigada in Vanilla Nomads, where would you take them? MBs in Corregidor, where would you take them? Suryats in Combined, where would you take them? Ectros in Tohaa, where would you take them instead of Kiel-Saan?
I mean it is probably true that the basic HI that get a bump by going into mixed links could be tweaked a little so which exact profiles to do that with didnt so often end up with the same answer (eg the HMG + ML Brigada or lt in an Alguacile link). Like if the tinbot was on the hacker like in more recent profiles that would then become more appealing in some lists / missions. But that is a much better situation than they were in before, and a far cry from the original contention of the thread being Heavy Infantry in general are a problem and therefore need buffing overall.
I would use all those. And have used ORCs that way for years. My first good tournie result (came second after dropping to firstat the top table) was in a vanilla pano list running paired ORC HMGs years ago. I even wrote the list up and a primer on it in an effort to teach others. In fact i have been using ORCs before they got mixed links. And one of my favourite setups is the ORC hmg and 2x BS haris. Its a nasty wall of lead amd arm that takes an inordinate ammount if effort to get past. But even outside thaf, nothing In NCA is in the weight class of an ORC at 44 pts 2 swc for a bs14 2w hmg. Its comparable weapon loadouts are either significantly more expencive or unable to tank an unlucky roll/crit. In a mixed link they are fantastic. This evaluation applies equally to mobile brigada (though admitedly them the least in vanilla nomads) and zuyong and suryat.
As someone who frequently runs suryats, I have to say that I do feel they are kinda weak for what they cost. It's not unusable, and against my jammer heavy meta the morat rule has helped a lot. However, their ability to link up with an expensive line troop (perhaps overly expensive) and their slightly below average statline coupled with their slightly above average cost and lack of dedicated specialist version forcing you to take a competent but much less resilent troop with them if you want a specialist does make them less interesting to play. They're not bad, and in the right mission I would definetely take one or two, but I will seldom pick a whole 5 monkey suryat team (or even a 3 monkey+kornak+raktorak). Not to mention there are suryat profiles that are just plain unusable (that 1 swc haris comes to mind). And in vanilla combined they are kinda hard to slot in when you consider the other options the army has around that same cost bracket. In Onyx I've never seen someone field a suryat, and I know I wouldn't if I played it. I think there's a misconstruction of some people (I include myself in this category) saying what amounts to "Some HI are less powerful than they should be, so they should be buffed or their points cost revised" into "All HI suck and they need to be buffed into the stratosphere to be worth it", which I don't think it's reasonable.
A bit off topic from the HI discussion, but this is something I’d be interested in reading about in a different thread. From an immersion perspective the way Fireteams work just feels off. In our meta we have experimented with simply allowing Fireteams to operate using free coordinated orders (instead of B and BS bonus). It has the benefit of using a rule that already exists, and means the squad operates more like a squad. Still leaves questions about the defensive turn, and is far from perfect, which is why I’m interested to hear other ideas.
