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The Heavy Infantry Problem

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Weathercock, Jun 15, 2019.

  1. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Lately, many factions seem to be getting 2W or 1.9W light and medium infantry, while heavy infantry end up paying extra points for the privilege of being hackable and having extra vulnerability to E/M weaponry with no real upside. To that end, good units with the HI designation are so in spite of it more than anything else, as it's a designation that now exists strictly to make a unit worse.

    Heavy infantry in general need to be buffed, or face a significant discount for being hackable, especially if CB is going to keep tossing around this "everyone gets a second wound now" crap to everyone and their dog.

    I wouldn't mind seeing HI get more supportware from hackers to balance those downsides without driving their cost down (which I would see as being bad for the game as a whole). Give supportware that would boost their stats (overclock those joint actuators or whatever justification you need) or provide specific skills like remotes get. Something to create a fair trade off the extra point costs and vulnerabilities HI are infamous for.
     
    #1 Weathercock, Jun 15, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
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  2. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    You are wrong. HI is where CB wants them to be.

    If you have doubts citizen then go play TAK or some other faction.

    I must remind you that if you insinuate that CB has anything to do with your dissapointment then you are treading on dangerous ground!
     
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  3. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    The fact that CB seems to be introducing more and more units these days that game around the issues of heavy infantry units while receiving all the benefits (and more) seems to point towards the opposite. If HI are right where CB wants them to be, then it means that CB wants to move the game away from HI.
     
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  4. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    HIs are mostly fine, their main problem is CB overvaluing ARM.

    Being hackable isn't such a big downside, not with KHDs and Supportware being a thing.
     
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  5. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    You can include TAGs into your complaints.

    Being Hackable isn't a big downside until it is. Loads of list concepts forfeit Hacking altogether - usually because they're pretty much immune to it anyway. You can gleefully run your own HI and TAGs into Ariadna and Tohaa and your heavy troops will feel comfortable in that matchup even undefended.
    That is until you run into an Aleph guy with a MK2 and a Danavas that turn your expensive stuff into a massive Order hog bleeding value left and right.

    While HI and TAGs have an extra layer of defenses against generic small arms, special ammo types invalidade their defenses disproportionately. E/M doesn't Immobilize generic mooks, AP/K1 as ammotype is cheaper than the upgrade from ARM 2->4, Mono shits all over the concept of being tanky altogether and Total Immunity is a much more efficient way to true resilience than raw stats.
     
  6. SpectralOwl

    SpectralOwl White-Faced Invincible

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    My Moblot would disagree. EM is such a menace relative to its cost that making a fully power-armoured list isn't even desirable, which is enormously upsetting to me. Since my regular opponent picked up OSS, my most consistent match winners have been Neoterra Bolts, purely because they completely ignore Dart's shenanigans and ALEPH's scary good Hacking game.. And some of those games were before the update, too! I've given serious thought to trying out the game with ARM stats doubled over standard, just so that heavy troops can actually be trusted to walk through anti-personnel weapons reliably and AP is actually needed instead of always opting for Template or multiple-wound options because removing the Cover bonus or getting extra rolls is more effective 99% of the time.
     
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  7. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    @Teslarod that's why I don't leave home without a KHD, support hacker, and some plan how to use them. I'm also less concerned about non-linkable hackers; at least Stealth works against them. Also, the general feeling how powerful are things ebbs and flows; remember that time when people argued that KHDs locked the hacking game completely? Didn't happen, obciously.

    AP/K1/Mono argument underlines what I've said before - CB overvalues ARM. A standard HMG hit has 70% chance of wounding ARM 1 LI, and 55% chance of wounding ARM 4 HI. That's pretty high, considering the price of that ARM.

    @SpectralOwl Moblots would definitely disagree, but then again they're in a severe need of an overhaul, together with the rest of FRRM. And as above, ARM feels too weak of a stat.
     
  8. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    How many non HI are working on the level of HI these days?

    Ariadna: Wulvers. Been there for ages.

    PanO: Nothing

    Yu Jing: Nothing

    Combined: Nothing

    ALEPH: Yadu and Shakti.

    Tohaa: Symbiont Armour, been there for ages.

    Nomads: Nothing

    Haqq: Namurr and Mukhtar I guess though we're stretching it to "has V: NWI and shock immune" here

    That doesn't seem like a lot. The only one that genuinely is a HI by any other name is the Yadu and being unnaturally tough is kind of that faction's whole deal.

    This really isn't an issue. Having 2 W is in fact straight better than 1 W with NWI due to being able to Doctor a downed expensive guy. I see a lot of HI, I take a lot of HI, HI is good and there are loads of fantastic troops and profiles in that type. Hacking is an important weakness that can be mitigated, as it should be.
     
  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Hackers and E/M are proportionally good to how many REM/TAG/HI your opponent takes. If your force contains many HI, any enemy Hacker will be much better.

    There's also the issue that some skills and abilities are more expensive on HI than LI/MI/SK units with equivalent stats, driving up the cost. The pricing table seems to be made with the preconception that higher attributes means things should cost more and the only units that were going to get high attributes were HI (and they would consistently get high attributes).
    It seems that preconception is being proven wrong, and possibly CB need to revise their pricing table to detach such increased prices from the unit classification and attach it to other signifiers instead. Maybe Infiltration shouldn't be more expensive on HI just because it's a HI? Arguably as well, maybe increased costs based on unit ability should be countered by having a higher concentration of your force' strength in one model - it's relatively easier to take out one Daofei than it is to take out 2 Nagas (simply due to location and no damage bleed-through).
     
    #9 Mahtamori, Jun 15, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
  10. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect
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    I was just rambling about this in another thread - there's a big gap between "basic" HI like an Orc or a Mobile Brigada and HI that has been kitted out for a specific purpose, like a Hollow Man, Charontid, etc. The same is true for every unit category, of course, but given all the built-in weaknesses HI have, I think the baseline bar needs to be higher.
     
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  11. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    You fit OS HD into lists ? Wow!
     
  12. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    How it didnt if it did ? You are actually seeing HD/AHD odn game table ? (not counting stupid combos of AHD+Lightning)
     
  13. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Investing some points into Hacking defense/offense can always end up being suboptimal. Hacking in itself has a problem which contributes further on troops indirectly related to it like HI and TAGs.
    KHDs largely outperform their cost for 2 points extra over a Specialist Operative. Since they're available to pretty much everyone and still don't impact unhackable armies, they're again a problem for the Hacking ecosystem not for the game as a whole. We certainly see less midfield AHDs though, they're a rare sight apart from MK2s. As far as I remember we both agree that non KHD Hacking could really use some extra utility against Unhackable targets.

    Agreed on the ARM cost. Thing is that even a Swiss Guard, who is an excellent HI is not all that resilient compared to its cost. Given the right tool (CC, DTW, 'Overkill weapon' or just very deadly trooper i.e. a FAT2 Rambo) you can and will drop even an ARM 8 TAG in a couple Orders. A 5 point Warband often outperforms a TAG in terms of survivability sub 8".

    @Solar you're missing a couple, mostly Tarik and Sheskin. Who have all the upsides with none of the downsides on top of ridiculous performance thanks to acces to FAT2. Wouldn't forget about Dart either.
    Yadu aren't a good example for non HI getting access to HI benefits without the downsides, they're pretty expensive and while immune to E/M and Hacking, they die to small arms super easy. Wouldn't even claim their outperform Orcs or Brigadas given their Link options.
     
  14. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    Why are some people still talking about HI like they have superior stats and 2 Wounds when half the units in Invincible don't? HI weaknesses would be ok if they really got superior stats, but the fact is lately they usually don't, so the difference between HI and NWI MI/LI is just HI has extra weaknesses because reasons.

    And yes, not many MI/LI have gone the way of the HI performance, but that's only because CB just came up with the idea this year, but I would bet we will see more and more come up with future releases.
     
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  15. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Pretty much this. The best HI are basically the ones stripped down so far that they're paying very few taxes in any kind of stats (low ARM, low PH, low CC, like the Zuyong), are getting a discount due to Frenzy/Impetuous (Riot Grrls), or the ones that have so much stuff that they're wildly elite (like the Asura or Swiss Guard.) The ones in the middle are just suffering all of the bloat without the benefits. The fact that having the hackable trait doesn't provide any discount is insane because it's a situational but noticeable weakness.

    I dislike making the comparison to Tohaa because the mechanics of Symbiont Armor are a bit different, but consider the Sakiel. The cheapest Sakiel is 18 points. As far as I can tell, that is the only case in the entire game where one very basic unit in a faction with 2W is cheaper than 2 units with 1W (not counting REMs, of course). And math-wise, it feels about right given the Sakiel's statline. If we had more HI that were like the Sakiel -- slightly buffed line troops, without any frills besides an extra wound -- we would see a ton more HI play just because they perform more consistently.
     
    #15 meikyoushisui, Jun 15, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
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  16. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    So much this.

    HI no longer have 2W, people!!!

    Of all the new units in the Heavy Infantry sectorial (IA), 5 of them were 1W+NWI.
    Daoying are 1W MI
    Hulang are 1W+NWI HI
    Haidao are 1W+NWI HI
    Liu Xing are 1W+NWI HI
    Mowang are 2W+NWI HI
    Zhencha are 1W+NWI HI
    Tai Sheng is a character Zuyong, 2W HI
    Krit is a character Zuyong, 2W HI

    Oh, and IA lost access to Tiger Soldiers (AD MI) and Daofei (Camo 2W HI)
     
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  17. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    It's also worth noting that the Zhencha doesn't have Shock or Bioimmunity, something that even LI and MI are getting on top of their NWI fairly regularly now. Comparing the Zhencha('s only good profile) to Dart is pretty scathing for the poor guy (and I personally love the Zhencha and think it's overall a very good unit in spite of only having a single viable profile).
     
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  18. Paegis

    Paegis Vincible

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    To be fair, Dart is a character. I do think there's no good reason the Zhencha lacks shock immunity though. Also, why no mines on the shotgun profile?
     
  19. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect
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    Yeah, I was shocked that they didn't even make Shock Immunity universal on the 1+NWI HI models.

    (Pun not intended)
     
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  20. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    I'm frustrated that the Zhencha doesn't have Shock Immunity, just given how many mines and SMGs there are in the midfield. When the profiles were leaked prior to Army updating, we all thought it was a mistake (there were other mistakes in the leaked profiles).

    Nope. It was deliberate, for some reason I don't understand.

    I would be willing to trade the Zuyong to 1W+NWI+Shock Immune (and -3pts per profile so changed) to give the Zhencha Shock Immune and the Haodai BTS3. And give the Haidao Engineer and Krit EM Immunity. That would make Krit almost worth taking, as you could have both an Engineer and Haidao KHD in your Core fireteam:

    Invincible Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]5
    TAI SHENG Mk12, Chain-colt, Stun Grenades / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 45)
    ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Haris, Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 34)
    ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Duo, Tactical Awareness) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1.5 | 38)
    HǍIDÀO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 26)
    KOKRAM FTO (Fireteam: Duo) Combi Rifle + E/Mitter, Chain-colt, E/Mauler / 2 Heavy Pistols, Knife. (0 | 39)

    2 SWC | 182 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
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