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The Hacking Issue and AHD

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Nemo No Name, Oct 26, 2018.

  1. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache

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    You're missing a point. It's not that Hacker is strictly needed, but rather, Hacker is merely acting as a trigger to ensure situation is appropriate for triggering it.
     
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  2. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Which renders whole system really silly. You say that this is a medkit system which is supposed to heal wounds&etc while it cannot even monitor the state of the patient ?

    Like lol ?
     
  3. RogueJello

    RogueJello Well-Known Member

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    Okay, but that's three sectorials, out of 30ish? 10% is a minority.

    I feel like some of the REMs are very strong for their points, the best example I'm aware of being the Bulleteer, which has ODD and a spitfire for 1/23. Pathfinder isn't far behind that, or TR REMs.

    All the non-hackable HI I'm aware of are in Ariadna, and all have 1W, which is a pretty serious drawback. Now most have a pseudo wound, and immunity to shock, but V:Dogged isn't 2W. The Vet Kazak the best of the lot with V:NWI, and shock immunity, where you might have a point.
     
  4. SpectralOwl

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    This gives me a fun idea... Give AHD a Claw-3 program that activates V:Dogged on Unconscious or otherwise Null HI. From either side, though against enemy HI allow a BTS save. Could be good for a laugh, without trivialising a major piece like Possession does to TAGs.
    Edit for clarificaton: Basically puppeting the servos, not using medical gear, and also allowing you to use enemy HI downed the normal way against them.
     
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  5. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache

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    No, you're missing the point. The medikit has already stabilised the patient, but it cannot repair all damage. However, if the situation in the field calls for it, it can inject it with a bunch of medicines and potentially get them in operational status.The wound is not magically healed, merely ignored for the time being. However, this usually taxes the body heavily, might make later proper healing and recovery harder, so you don't want to do it unless it is necessary. Hence, you need a Hacker or a Doctor to do it, and you make a roll representing the chance that there's simply nothing that can be done - after all, no medikit is gonna get someone going if they're missing a chunk of the backbone.

    =========================================================================

    Also, I will reiterate that all these proposed changes to interactions with HIs and TAGs are nice and certainly an interesting conversation to have, but I would like my Hacking to be useful irrespective of what exactly has been fielded, and was hoping we could focus conversation in this thread on that point.
     
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  6. SpectralOwl

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    Fair point, Nemo. The problem is the limited effects currently in Infinity that can be applied to non-HI, REM or TAG-class units electronically. One idea I was able to come up with is another CLAW program targetting Visors that effectively removes Line of Sight, but most LI soldiers don't carry many electronics beyond their radios/comlogs. New idea: Distract. CLAW-2, enemy must beat Reset/WIP or attacker gets to make them Change Facing. Could be fluffed as audio/HUD hacks, would actually apply to most units in Infinity. Would give AHDs a use against nearly everything.
     
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  7. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Tbh I was always struggling to see that "mighty" TAGs being just victim of ZoC/ChF schaneningans and giving the SS2 (through hacking support) could be a nice way to do so (so that people can still hunt someone buffing TAGs, and players can decide if the want to invest more into TAGs support or not). Mayby even giving this as a property of EVO ?
     
  8. Mruczyslaw

    Mruczyslaw AROnaut

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    We can do a lot with rems. Buff those in various ways;)

    But with most expensive toys like TAGs and HI? Firewall?;) Some negative mods vs enemy hacking attacks?;) Yeah, awesome;)
     
  9. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache

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    Again, that requires the user to field TAGs. That's all nice and I would like to have it, but I'd like Hacking to be useful irrespective of what both sides fielded. As in, I would like a program that affects any enemy.

    Some ideas for effects I would like, especially in ARO, in order of preference (more preferred to less preferred):
    • make target Irregular, permanent, repairable by Engineer
    • Targeted state
    • Isolated, but 1-turn only (breaks Rambos)
    • Stunned, 1 turn (similar to previous, but a bit more punishing due to applicability in Active turn - maybe make it ARO-only?)
     
    #69 Nemo No Name, Oct 31, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2018
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  10. SpectralOwl

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    Stunned is plenty powerful in the Active Turn. Achilles, Dart and all manner of dreaded rambos and top-tier ARO pieces are one failed BTS save away from being dogpiled by line infantry with no chance to fight back. And it could make sense as a Hacking attack, too; burst their eardrums with the comlog speakers and white out the HUD!
    Edit; I am dumb and misread Nemo's post. I still wouldn't consider it OP as a Hacking Attack, the ammo exists on everything from Grenades to MULTI Snipers and is still far less oppressive than linked E/M Grenade Launchers by a long shot.
     
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  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    The straws I grasped at would of course be for normal Hacking Device and EVO Hacking Devices, both of which has a strong presence and are fairly universally useful, not to mention that you yourself has control over what units you bring. I see no problem with this and it's not so much addressing the situation with Hacking as it is addressing the situation where the Hackable trait is perhaps too much of a drawback.

    On the other end of the spectrum is what you're addressing. I don't think these two need to be in opposition of each other.

    I like the idea of ISO-1, say for simplicity's sake we just change Blackout* to simply induce Isolated-1 (1-turn? 2-turn? Until Reset?) with no target restrictions - it would probably go a long way to make Hackers more universally viable. Certainly something I'd wish to test if I could convince people to test things (most of my games ends up being tournaments, however, so little room to test).

    * Why Blackout specifically? I know a fair few metas have singled out this Hack to be the definitive source why HI and TAGs are considered less-viable
     
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  12. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache

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    Just add the new programs to AHDs and be done with it. Make them truly worth their points. I like making Irregular because I think it hurts the weaker stuff more - expensive stuff you'll want to be using orders anyway so it's not as big of a problem.
     
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  13. SpectralOwl

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    Yet another random thought: Everything in Infinity is optional except for the objective. Interfacing with Objectives requires a WIP roll. Allow hackers to mess with that roll lets them hurt every list in the game.
     
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  14. Devil_Tiger

    Devil_Tiger Your Friendly Neighborhood Asura

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    I remember reading the RPG book before REALLY getting into Infinity (the miniature game that is) and with Maya being what it is and the degree of integration and how dependant everyone except Ariadnans are on it, it always kinda surprised me that hacker couldn't target things other than HI, REM, TAGs and other hackers. Especially since in the RPG you can basically hack anything that's more technologically evolved than a knife (since virtually everything is connected at this point.)

    Everyone uses the combat datasphere, the surveillance drones hovering above the battlefield and short range comms. Even Ariadna, if their tech level is still grounded in the 21st century, well, there's a lot of technological shenanigans involved, they probably don't use runners, flag signals and signal lamps for their communication. There SHOULD be a fair bit more Hacker can mess with than high tech units and other hackers. That there isn't an ability to temporarily isolate even LI and MI is mildly mind blowing.

    The hacking game should be just that, another, invisible layer of conflict over the battlefield, not that lopsided "rock, paper, tactical nuke" game it is at the moment. Since if you don't want to play the game, you just take a bunch of killer hackers and call it a day, especially considering how little of an investment they are (no SWC and dirt cheap) they are compared to every other hacking device. You kinda get to shut down a whole segment of the game for much cheaper than it is to play that segment. I kinda feel like it should be the other way around at that point, KHD should be the precious ressource.

    But hey, i guess i'm just repeating what a lot of other peoples are saying so maybe i don't have anything relevant to add.

    But yeah, what i mean is Hacking should be -cool- and the main way to play with the "Cyberpunk" aspect of the setting/game. And that's not the case, and i guess it's maybe not desirable as it may make the game even more daunting to many peoples (though there's a lot of things that could go a long way to simplifying it, like making hacking an action and programs be "weapons" ... Maybe, i didn't think that one through)
     
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  15. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with @Devil_Tiger .

    There is very little general-hacking-around in Infinity. There is actually more hacking around in the Ghosts of Hefei game, and everyone is using freaking cellphones to hack with, not military electronic-warfare gear! In GoH, you need to create your repeater network on-the-fly by hacking random WiFi-enabled items (since everything is online to some extent, you just place a marker where you're hacking, and can build chains out to where you need to actually work)
     
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  16. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    I agree with the fundamental point. In a appropriate fight AHD and KHD feel balanced and useful. That is when hackable troops are being held back and the KHD is there to enable them. In most AHD becomes an expensive liability and KHD becomes a bonus rather than a counter.

    However if AHD becomes too useful to always take it's hurting HI and TAGs which do not need to be balanced down. Hopefully whatever their plan is is already in testing.
     
  17. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    There are a bunch of issues whith Hacking that all need to be fixed to make the whole thing a proper part of the game once again.
    - fix KHDs vs AHDs
    - make Hacking useful against unhackable targets
    - keep Guided Missile spam in check
    - get rid of some completely mind boggling swings due to a single Hack (Possession)

    AHD
    • First things first, it has to provide some sort of benefit against "unhackable" armies. Oblivion causing 1 turn Isolation to represent hacked Comms, effectively making them temporary Jammers would do the trick.
    • Streamlining programs to make things less of a mess.
    • AHDs can't just completely control TAGs, a swing with that big of an impact is impossible to balance. Maybe change that into getting a free Order with the Hacked TAG (at reduced Profile) and buff the odds a little. Also make it an Active Turn only program.
    • AHD need a way to kill KHDs in their Active Turn. The core princible of Infinity is that almost anyone gets to be at least a theoretically lethal threat against everyone else. Having expensive AHDs as an exception from that seems rather nonsensical. To make matters worse several AHDs already get to work around that by flat out having Upgrades that provide KDH programs. Brainblast is the equivalent of a Pistol in Hacking, let them have that.
    • Add Lockpicker.
    • Buff Carbonite's DAM to 15. Since completely controlling TAGs is now more of a niche application and the KHD problem is still not fixed, Carbonite is now in line with KHD Programs in terms of success potential, but remains nonlethal and goes away on it's own.
    WHD/DHD
    • Just get rid of the rules bloat and make it one Device.
    • Get rid of even more rules bloat and make the yadda yadda simply full blown Sixth Sense L1. That would double down as the WHD's utility against normal troops.
    • I like the earlier suggestion to let it treat friendly Hackers as Repeaters in ARO, +1 for that
    KHD
    • Provides the benefit of Specialist and Cybermask even against unhackable targets and is brutally effective against Hackers in general.
    • Substract 1 DAM from all DAM16 Programs other than that they're fine (if the other Devices get their issues fixed).
    • Streamlining Programs to make things less of a mess.
    HD/HD+
    • Keep HD+ as is, it's a great piece of Equipment
    • drop HD to (5|0.5)
    EVO HD
    • Right now that thing is 17 points, that's just too much. Drop it to 12 (which makes the EVO Remotes 20 points).

    Other things to note about Hacking would be
    • Under no circumstances buff Spotlight, no one wants Smart MLs to become viable as a default strategy again. For the same reasons don't mess with the EVO or its buff to Satlock too much.
    • Like @Alphz mentioned, I'd agree that Isolation and or Obvlivion might need a rework along with Jammers.
     
    #77 Teslarod, Nov 3, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2018
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  18. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    Merging DHDs/WHDs makes perfect sense. On the other hand, I don't think taking over TAGs is that powerful; it's a fairly order-intensive tactic, and it's pretty easy for TAG owner to retake control.

    Balancing programs by modifying their DAM value is a very sound idea.

    Spotlight can be balanced simply by allowing it in ARO; it'd make it useful against non-hackable models, but without strenghtening Guided weapons. Not that I agree that it's a real threat, using SMLs is very order intensive, and wouldn't be out of line even with a bit better Spotlight.

    We have a program that would be perfect carrier for ISO-1 state. Blackout. Anyone uses it anyway?
     
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  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Blackout is my go-to ARO for my normal Hackers when they're attacked. It would be neat if it also fried any hostile Repeaters it jumped through.
     
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  20. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache

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    I think Blackout should get significant bonus/penalty, so it can become a program AHD can fight KHD without AHD replacing KHD. This way, AHD can prevent attacks on itself but won't actually hurt KHD trooper, just prevent them from hacking.

    Another possible program would be higher level of Blackout which could disable weaponry (make a weapon unusable for 1 turn for example).
     
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