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The Hacking Issue and AHD

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Nemo No Name, Oct 26, 2018.

  1. RogueJello

    RogueJello Well-Known Member

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    I think we're going to see more use for Spotlight with the addition of smart missile REMs to link teams in 3rd offensive. How that works is not really clear, but PanO and one other sectorial (IA?) have their smart missile REMs marked as "special" in link teams. B2 Smart Missile launchers would fix the current issue with them, which is that they are very order intensive.

    This will make AHD more useful, even against Ariadna.
     
  2. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Guided mode is always Burst 1. But they'd get the BS MOD if it's a full Core.
     
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  3. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    Heavy infantry and tags may not to be top things in your meta. But it is very competitive in my meta.

    Heavy Infantry link, Swiss guad, achilles and big TAG are what frighten me most.

    They make order spam totally useless once you remove one or two key pieces. Ifyou can't gunfight your way though to objective you are in trouble. You just have to pray for a lucky shot ... Or use smoke but sometime it's not enough.

    I love having an alguacil in frrm just for potential threat to these things.
     
  4. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    I think CB realizes no one uses guided ammo/remotes. that's why they're trying to push for the dual use ARO piece/Active turn guided shot by allowing them in link teams. We've seen it with Druze but now for the most part theres a second profile without the smart missile. so who knows.
    If spotlight was usable in ARO, deployable repeaters would become much more powerful, as it would just pretty much let every hacker on the board always have an ARO to whatever walked within 8 of it. As a PanO player I would be very happy, my FO croc men would high-five as my Kamau sniper would now be hitting on 19s in ARO when you have cover.

    I do think the -3 should be ditched though.
     
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  5. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Hackable should be a 1-3pt discount, DHDs should protect you against enemy hackers hacking other troops in your army, AHDs should be more viable against current "non-hackable" targets.

    Currently its rock paper scissors, except the scissors are a cannon and the rock can only be used if your opponent decides to specifically target them with their scissor-cannon (which will then probably blow them up anyway), and the paper can only be used against a specific kind of rocks that some people never have any of.
     
  6. jimbo slice

    jimbo slice Well-Known Member

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    Aren't all the linkable missile bots a separate profile from the smart launcher? With a standard ML? Not sure where all this smart ML in a link talk is coming from.
     
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  7. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    We have what, two examples for now? In Druze, any Clipper can join the Druze fireteam, so you can link SML. In OSS, only the new ML variant can link.

    Problem with Spotlight is the one shared with other interesting, but order-intensive tactics. They're so order intensive, that 90% of the time it's more efficient to simply shoot your targets. Taking away that -3 would help with that.

    Basically what we need is the balance between infowar and standard BS Attacks, and within the infowar, between various programs themselves; while it makes sense to have some of them simply weaker, because there are more powerful versions in the upper tiers, utility programs should be universally useful.
     
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  8. RogueJello

    RogueJello Well-Known Member

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    PanO VIRD is AVA 2 on Clippers with Fireteam "Special".

    There's already a pretty strong balance, since they cannot harm you, unless your a hacker, instead applying a status of some sort. The worst status is Isolated, or maybe POS for Tags, but that's rare. Further I believe Isolated is the only status that persists beyond two turns. You can also reset as much as you like, either as an order or an ARO. Finally you really need to be a Hacker, TAG, or HI to worry about it.

    So a lot of the hacking attacks don't seem to have enough payoff for the return, IMHO. They're more interesting in ARO, or potentially a combo, but for the most part they're going to require 2-3 orders to pull off the attack, which is only going to get fixed in a turn, without any orders being spent.

    It seems like CB was trying to avoid the feeling of unfairness when your model gets "attacked" without being able to respond, but maybe they went too far.

    There is still an issue with applying Hackers to their natural targets. There are some HI heavy forces, like MO, but it's far more common to see 1-2 HI on a given side. The hackers are generally going to be in the back, and have good odds of being on the wrong side of the field. So often without Pitchers, REMs, or some other support they turn into order sinks. Even with help they're still not super efficient.

    So 2-3 order to move down field into range, 2-3 to apply a status effect, which is going to wear off in a couple of turns. Compare this with most of the BS weapons in the game, where you might be shooting on the first order, potentially dropping the target in one turn, and they're out of the game.

    Just a somewhat random example, Alguicile HMG vs Hospitaler:
    HMG is 60% likely to get a wound
    Hacking Device is 21% likely to Isolate


    They're the same cost, with the HMG being +0.5 SWC. For those rates I'd expect the numbers to be reversed. (I understand better hackers, worse responses from the Hospitaler, Firewall, Tin Bot, blah blah blah, it's as middle of the road an example as I can think of)

    Hackers can also sorta work as trading up pieces. The same 0.5/18 Hacking Alguicile could hack a 2/62 pt HMG Aquila Guard, and then eliminate him, but there are a variety of E/M weapons and Jammers which are just as cheap, if not cheaper, and can do the same thing.

    I could use it to boost my REM's effectiveness, but for the price of even the cheapest hacker I could be taking another REM. With crits being a thing, I'm usually better off with a second model.


    IMHO, Hackers either need to drop in price, increase in effectiveness, or be given another way to be more efficient.

    Effectiveness could be improved by:
    1) Allowing them to kill targets
    2) Making hack attacks permanent
    3) Giving them a longer range, if using the hacking device via direct line of sight.
     
    #28 RogueJello, Oct 29, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2018
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  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    @RogueJello Alguaciles can't Isolate HI/TAG. Blackout disables Comms Equipment (i.e. other Hacking Device etc)

    And as someone who regularly fields HI - hacking really needs a serious rebalancing. Stick down a couple of repeaters strategically and it starts getting impossible to do anything where the Algiacile hacker can punish my Zuyong for doing anything but Reset (thus wasting the skill declaration) with 35% chance of IMM1 should I try to shoot a target while the HMG of the Alguacile has only 7% chance of wounding since I'll be shooting back and likely with an HMG of my own.

    Add to it that the Alguacile isn't the only one able to use that repeater and you can quickly make it impossible for a HI to do anything with just a couple of Druze.
     
  10. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

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    If Spotlight functioned like Alert in ARO, ie you gave up your ARO for specific bonuses to other troops such as +3BS or ignoring cover on shooting against the activated trooper, on that order; you'd effectively lock down an attack piece until the hacker was dealt with or face a penalised activation. Maybe that'd be too powerful, especially with pitchers a "thing".
     
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  11. RogueJello

    RogueJello Well-Known Member

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    Hacking works pretty well in ARO, for the reasons mentioned. However, the answer is usually to take an LI/MI and shoot the repeater. Further placing the repeater is usually as expensive as shooting it. Most times the placer is either going to use a pitcher (50-60% chances of success), or an infiltrator, which is going to usually use an order or two to move into place, and put down the repeater.

    Not sure where you're getting your stats. In the active phase the Alguacile has a 50% chance of doing at least one wound, while the Zuyong is only getting 15% odds of doing a wound in return. Assuming they both have HMGs, in cover, correct range bands. He only has a 40% of putting the Zuyong into IMM-1 during the active turn.
     
    #31 RogueJello, Oct 30, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2018
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Your getting the numbers wrong because you're putting the Alguacile in active turn. Flip them and have them waste my orders instead.

    Have you tried shooting the Pitcher so that the LI needs to both run across half the table as well as round a corner? You don't have to aim the pitcher close to my DZ and out in the open ;)
     
  13. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    Remember back when parabolic weapons deviated, so even if you missed the shot with your marker pitcher, it still might have been good enough?
     
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  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I only ghosted the forums back then :p
    Played a grand total of 1 game of N2

    But yeah... that was... a reason to nerf grenade launchers in general...
     
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  15. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I was definitely on the receiving end of Nomads blind-firing a barrage of repeaters downrange top of turn 1 a couple of times.
     
  16. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    This was also combined with HD+ being able to put you into the targeted state unopposed and on something like WiP or WiP-3. Followed by raining automatically hitting guided fire.

    N2 was great!
     
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  17. RogueJello

    RogueJello Well-Known Member

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    To do IMM-1 the same Alguacile needs ~6% to put the Zuyong in IMM-1 if the Zuyong is going to shoot him, so hacking still has worse odds than shooting.

    Pitchers? Pitchers are pretty order intense these days with the removal of dispersion. If you're further than 16" away you're looking at a -3 MOD on a unit with a BS12 at best, or you'll need to spend orders moving up the board. You could put that pitcher in a 5 man link team of moderators and get it to BS10 + 3 link team boost, then you've got a 50% chance at 24", which is enough to sorta use them from deployment zone.

    Also why do you only have one LI, force you to run across the board like that? I'll grant you that might happen if you're running MO, or maybe the new Invincibles Army. Otherwise what I usually see is 1-2 HI, and the rest are largely immune to hacking. So this sounds like poor deployment to me.
     
  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    1-2 HI isn't fielding HI. If you're facing a force where a Light Infantry is merely an order away from your Pitchers, either you're not facing HI or you kind of suck at target priority with the Pitcher. A Swiss or a Su-Jian doesn't count, that's par for course, even if a Pitcher should get you some pretty damned good value for the 65% hit chance it's got.

    I'm talking about a force consisting of 4+ Wu Ming, 7+ Samurai, 5+ Knights, anything else with a very serious points and SWC investment riding on Hackable platforms (whom doesn't tend to get access to Killer Hackers). You don't stick it down to counter the list with a single Zuyong HMG and a suspiciously high amount of HMG-armed mooks, I'm talking about where your opponent has invested some damned value in their HI force and where sticking down a single successful pitcher close to the front line can lock that force down hard.

    Who said anything about one LI? We're talking about order investment here. The LI isn't going to be close to your pitcher, so it's going to cost me orders to run the LI up close enough to the pitcher to shoot it. If the LI goes down before it gets there, there might be another LI to send out, but there might not be enough orders for it to get the Pitcher down.

    And no, the entire point is that the Alguacile doesn't need to be in LOF of the Zuyong/Marut/Grrl, so no, they don't get to shoot the Alguacile Hacker back. The best they can hope for against the Alguacile is a Reset. And then a Reset. And then a Reset. And are we out of the Repeater range yet? No? Well, Reset.

    Edit: changed a singular platform to plural platform and made it clearer that I mean that HI doesn't tend to get KHD rather than falsely implying lists with HI don't get the,
     
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  19. Jawasa

    Jawasa Member

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    Wouldnt the HI player just run his inf killer hacker Into the repeter and make that hackers head explode or run up his own repeter.
     
  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Depends on your investment and your opponent's force. If your opponent has AHD in CH-marker state then you're SOL and if you opponent has sufficient KHDs (let's ballpark that at 2+) then the tactic is very risky. That leaves you with trying to get a repeater close enough to the opponent repeater to disable it without getting your own repeater Blacked Out. This is not a small feat for most HI forces since Pitchers and Deployable Repeaters aren't as universally available as SMGs or LGLs.
    Regardless of which the hacker has succeeded in seriously damaging the HI player's order pool with relatively low extra investment.

    So the point is that there's an issue with scaling where the hackable trait gets increasingly detrimental the more you invest in it units having said trait. Hence there is no blanket statement that hacking is too weak that checks out.

    So to reiterate: an Alguacile HMG isn't comparable to an Alguacile Hacker. The HMG is not universally better.

    P.s. you could of course Cautious Move through a Repeater for a "critical Reset" kind of thing, but... you know... wasting orders...
     
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