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The Good Guys Wear Orange - An RTF Blog

Discussion in 'Haqqislam' started by Grotnib, Oct 29, 2020.

  1. Grotnib

    Grotnib Well-Known Member

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    No new article this week, but I've gone through all of the pieces I've written so far correcting spelling mistakes, badly worded sentences, and integrating links redirecting to both my own texts as well as to the Infinity N4 Wiki for increased reader convenience! Phew!

    I've also added a Veteran's Word subtext titled "the Huntress" to the Tuareg article.
     
    #161 Grotnib, Apr 28, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2021
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  2. Muad'dib

    Muad'dib Well-Known Member

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    @Grotnib Do you have plans to write a post on listbuilding concepts in Ramah? Touching on topics like how many super soldiers vs. order fillers do you run, how many orders do you aim for, parachutists vs. infiltrators for midfield projection, how many links is a good number, etc?

    My background is primarily QK and Ariadna, but I bought the Red Veil box a while back and I've been tinkering with Ramah lists lately; however, I find it very challenging if I want to have more than 10 orders. The majority of profiles in the army are more than 20 pts and many are over 30, so I struggle to bring the units I want to bring and also have enough orders for 2 groups.

    I'm also very challenged to understand how Ramah handles midfield control/denial due to the high cost of its infiltrators. Due you normally just cede the midfield to your opponent and plan to fight your way out of your deployment zone?
     
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  3. Grotnib

    Grotnib Well-Known Member

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    Hello! I've intentionally stayed away from posting in dept about my personal list building strategy - while it's easy to be inclusive while writing about the individual units of RTF, my personal listbuilding philosophy is often more exclusive... I do plan on writing about some list building elements in the future, but that may take some time to get to...So since you asked, here's my very personal take on the questions you brought up!

    I've tinkered with lists below 15 Orders, but in my experience RTF just lacks the staying power and "bonus activations" to make such tactics viable (most of the time). Thus the template I most often fall back to when listbuilding is some variation of
    - a 5 Member (counts as) Ghulam Core
    - Ghulam Lieutenant and Lieutenant Decoy
    - Warcor
    - 5-6 supersoldiers (or equivalent units such as Tuaregs and/or Zhayedans)
    - Supporting Specialists and/or ARO elements to round out the force
    The Ghulam Core can either be mainly defensive (Missile Launchers and Snipers), highly aggressive (Khawarij NCO Mk12 and Smoke + all the Shotguns) or just plain cheap (Panzerfausts all the way!) as the list requires it to be. NCO (or active an LT and a Chain of Command) also help to increase the effective amount of Orders in use to the max.

    I quite often spread out my Order pools 9-6 or even 8-7 - this way even if one of them gets devastated, the other can still act in a meaningful way (granted, this style makes deep, decive single turn strikes less viable, but I prefer "stangling my opponents" opposed to "punching them out" anyway). I've had best success with lists where both groups include a sweeper (like a Khawarij Mk12 or a Zhayedan HMG), a Skirmisher (like a Nahab, a Tuareg or a Namurr) and supportive elements (such as REMs or lone Ghulam Specialists). This way both groups always have something productive to do. I usually try and avoid having more than one or two models in hidden deployment/parachuting, as keeping such models from the fight will bite into my Order pool rather quickly.

    When it comes to midfield presence, I personally don't subscribe to the general view that RTF is weak at it. Our Infiltrators, while expensive, are also very, very capable! Tuaregs can (and usually should) remain hidden until they can make an active turn strike, as there are few opposing (light) midfield pieces that can survive an attack by them. Nahabs are absolutely fantastic, as they can use their excellent PH 13 and Dodge (+2'') to keep active even in your reactive turn, dodging to better spots and even engaging enemies that get too close! Their NWI and Direct Template weapons also mean that traditional Skirmishers can't trade with them with any certainty - many a time my Nahab as stood bloodied but triuphant over enemy midfield pieces that tried to take them out (Localized Decompression Zones are especially helpful here).

    At the end of the day, when I'm playing Ramah it's true that whether we're talking about Hacking, midfield presence or firepower, my strike team usually can't assert dominance over the opposing force from the start of the battle. Instead my Ramah operatives must take the enemy force apart piece by piece, leveraging their highly capable solo pieces and/or Fireteams to do so. Sometimes this means that I have to deploy my Infiltator(s) more conservatively to try and spare them for the late game, and at times I'm willing to use them as glorified speed bumbs to buy time for the rest of my force - the same goes for my Fireteams. As a general rule, if my strike team makes it to the third turn with half a decent Order pool left, I'm in a good spot!

    This response got quite long, but I hoped I've managed to shed some light to how I think! Please let me know if you'd me to elaborate something, and remember - just because you disagree with me doesn't mean you're wrong!
     
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  4. Danger Rose

    Danger Rose The Wrecking Belles

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    I'm also transitioning from QK to RTF and have been having the same issue. I've made a few 10 order lists, but in general I have always struggled with Limited Insertion.

    This is a great starting point. Thanks to @Grotnib 's articles, I've stopped disregarding a Ghulam Core, and it opens the way for a few more options on the 13-15 order range.

    I'm a bit partial to the Mukhtar Haris, which has served me well in the few games I played.

    The one unit I can't get to work for me is the Nahab. I'm not used to using Parachutists and in one game the Nahab never even made it to the table. I always find it nearly impossible to get an opening for the Nahab without eating tons of AROs. It doesn't help that I never got used to the TTS environment, which only makes it harder for me to effectively deploy a Nahab.
     
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  5. Muad'dib

    Muad'dib Well-Known Member

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    Hi Grotnib, thanks for the additional context on your list building, this really helps. When you are building around a 5 member Ghulam core, do you aim to slot your 5-6 super soldiers into a haris link or do you tend to rely on the super soldier's innate stats and skills?

    Given the high cost of infiltrators in Ramah, do you find it better to deploy conservatively (such as within the umbrella of your Ghulam firebase)? Unlike QK, where I can have at least 2 Al Hawwa specialists within spitting distance of an objective, Ramah doesn't seem to permit that kind of redundancy, so relying on a dodge to stay alive feels very risky with .

    Could you elaborate a bit on how you build your Mukhtar haris and how they play on the table? I find them interesting, but ARM 1 seems thin for a unit that starts at 27 points.
     
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  6. Grotnib

    Grotnib Well-Known Member

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    I'm so glad my writings have been of use to you! I'd also be interested to hear how the Mukhtar Haris has panned out in practice!

    If you want to try and make the Parachuting Nahab work, I'd recommend you try out the Redfury profile - she can enter board in a spot not too close to the opposing force, and still be in the optimal range to start engaging targets from the very start! The second thing you can try out is firing Smoke from your Ghulam NCO (or Al Fasid) to cover your Nahab coming in - if you're feeling extra careful, pick the Killer Hacker, Cybermask once you land, and be on your merry way! I remember fondly a game when my TAC opponent had a Haris of Veteran Kazaks hugging the table edge covered by the rest of his force - I launched Smoke at their feet, brought in the Nahab right next to them, and proceeded to kill the entire Fireteam in melee... Good times!

    This would depend entire on the Mission, the opponent and the mood I'm in! I personally enjoy saturating the field with individual pieces that can project meaninful threat (it's harder for your opponent to defend against such tactics, your game isn't "over" once your two or three main rambos are gone, and it's easier to find openings to exploid in your opponent's line with multiple ways in), and thus my preferred style is to have plenty of individual supersoldiers(/Zhayedans/Tuaregs). I always consider whether I should include a Khawarij (either the NCO Mk12 or the HRL) in the Ghulam Core though, as getting those sweet, sweet Fireteam bonuses is so great... I do also sometimes splash out for a Zhayedan or especially a Khawarij Haris - the latter always has something nice to do, while the former just kicks ass when gunfighting!

    This depends very much on whether I'm going first or second, and what the table layout looks like. I often risk deploying Nahabs close to Objectives when going first, and consider it even when going second - again, this helps to project threat and funnel my opponent into the parts of the table where I can take them out on my turn. If it's possible to cover them with ARO pieces, all the better! Deploying Nahabs is very much a risk/reward thing that I'm still trying to master...

    I feel that when a "standard" 1 wound Skirmisher (or an anti-Skirmisher!) engages another on it's active turn, the engagement most of the time ends with the reactive skirmisher dead (the possible results being either model suffers a wound and the engagement is over, or the engagement is indecisive). When a Nahab is engaged, the probability space for what happens is much larger - he/she can afford to take a wound, and the engagement continues, the attacker can go down to a Direct Template, the Nahab can succesfully Dodge to engage (thanks to Dodge +2''), or everyone whiffs and/or passes their saves, and we need to start over. Thus the possibility of the Nahab surviving an attack is way higher than for most Skirmishers, as is the chance of a catastrophic failure for your opponent! If my opponent spent Orders and used valuable piece(s) to engage and kill my Nahab, that's okay - I've got plenty more supersoldiers and a Fireteam of Shotguns eager to make your acquaintance...

    As a last note; Nahabs are also interesting pieces, because after the turn they've caused a wound to the enemy, they turn from a elite Skirmisher to a super Warband! That's something that both the RTF player and their opponent must take into account...
     
    #166 Grotnib, May 5, 2021
    Last edited: May 5, 2021
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  7. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    I think I recall @Koval saying something similar. He might have some thoughts on this, I know he's used the parachute Nahab a lot.

    Not sure I'm following your logic here. It's true that the Nahab's nanopulser is a disincentive for enemy 1W troops to attack her from within 8", but any skirmisher with a shotgun can do the same thing. I guess the Nahab discourages trading since it's likely to survive a single attack from a skirmisher. Surely a marker state does more to protect a skirmisher in its reactive turn than any of the Nahab's kit, though. If you're arguing that the Nahab is better in the reactive turn than other skirmishers, I have a hard time seeing it.


    More broadly, the parachutist Nahab seems pretty good for her points. She compares well to, say, a Ragik - for 3 extra points you get a lot of extra kit, and only lose combat jump which the Ragik never uses anyway. The infiltrating Nahab, on the other hand, just seems like too many points for a unit with infiltration and no marker state.
     
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  8. Grotnib

    Grotnib Well-Known Member

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    I wasn't clear enough on my original post about why I feel the Nanopulser/Boarding Shotgun on the Nahab is in my view more powerful than in the hands of a single wound Skirmisher, so here I go: an attacking model that is willing to take the Direct Template must either pass it's save, or atleast take out the Nahab for attacking it to make sense - a situation where the attacker fails to kill it's target and/or they get knocked out themselves is way more likely when you have to inflict two wounds to reach your goal. Also, the Dodge +2'' makes engaging a Nahab in close quarters very dangerous.

    As to which is better - Marker State or NWI + all the other Nahab gear, I can't tell you a definitive answer! This will entirely depend on the situation, and claiming one is universally better than the other is impossible. Marker state protects you from getting attacked until you get discovered (or you reveal), after which it is useless untill you can recamo. NWI means that you can tank an ARO/Mine/other hit under most circumstances, until you get wounded. Why not have both with Nahab Killer Hacker utilizing Cybermask?

    Few units are universally great or universally bad in Infinity - it's how and when you use them. If someone can't make the Nahab work - no stress! There plenty of more (super)fish in the sea!

    Edit. Corrected a spelling mistake and added the last sentence.
     
    #168 Grotnib, May 5, 2021
    Last edited: May 5, 2021
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  9. Danger Rose

    Danger Rose The Wrecking Belles

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    First, a disclaimer: I like writting stories about "my dudettes" and for story reasons one of the Mukhtar is the Hacker profile. The other one is always the Red Fury MSV2. I then fill the Haris with either a Namurr or Leila Shariff, depending on what I want to do with them.

    I use them mostly as active turn shooter/camo hunter. And when orders dwindle significantly, finding good cover is a priority. ARM 1 really hurts ehen hit, but Mimetism -3 plus Cover gives them some survivability. NWI and Shock Immunity add a bit of staying power, but yes, it's a risky investment. But coming from an Odalsiques Core Fireteam in N3, I'm used to those risky investments.

     
  10. Mattmus

    Mattmus Member

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    I've had a read through about 4 or 5 of your unit profiles and I'm really impressed. You are always going to have disagreements because of the myriad ways units can be used in Infinity, but I just wanted to say that they are all well written, comprehensive and informative. Thanks for your time and ideas!

    Sent from my SM-G780F using Tapatalk
     
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  11. Grotnib

    Grotnib Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for your interest mate, I'm very happy you're enjoying the articles! :)
     
  12. Koval

    Koval Well-Known Member

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    Nahab are probably my favorite solo pieces in the army. Taking more than one or maybe two. But I do agree that they can be hard to land. I've found that the red fury is a very expensive mediocre gunfighter, but the other two are great. Nahab are great at stabbing things, which is easier with a shorter-range weapon, and pushing buttons, which the red fury obviously can't do.

    I see this more as an aggressive ability than a defensive one. In the reactive turn, there's a good chance that the enemy model will pass their save or kill the Nahab. In the active turn, your Nahab will always be able to survive a single shotgun/nanopulser/mine. This also combines very well with berserk, where the Nahab is guaranteed to survive against anything but multiple burst or some specific ammo types.

    I would agree with this, to an extent. The infiltrator is one of the best pieces to put down as your reserve model when you're going first to go on a turn 1 attack run. The issue comes in when you go second, when I've found the Nahab consistently dies in my opponent's first turn without my opponent needing to put 33 points of effort into it. The parachutist, of course, doesn't have that issue.

    Really, I guess I still want the N3 version where all the profiles have both.
     
  13. Danger Rose

    Danger Rose The Wrecking Belles

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    Thanks. I'm in the process of learning to play the Sectorial and I REALLY want the Nahab to work for me. Thanks for your input on the Red Fury Nahab. In the few games I played, I had a similar situation with the Red Fury Mukhtar (wrong weapon to go against high-armor targets, which are abundant in my minuscule meta). I feel the SMG, with the AP and Suppressive Fire capabilities, is a better bet for me.

    I'm considering a Nahab/Hakim combo, but I'm still theorizing at this point.
     
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  14. Grotnib

    Grotnib Well-Known Member

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    I'd like to make one more humble appeal for the Redfury Nahab! While she not being a Specialist really hurts in some Missions, I've been really successful with her bullying targets ill equipped to deal with her - even at mediocore BS 12, she's often been able to muscle through most light opposition thanks to high burst and advantageous positioning! Furthermore, Redfury not only has a positive rangeband from 8-24'', it's 0-8'' doesn't suffer any penalties, and it's -3 band extends out to 40''! I've quite many a time managed to Parachut her into an enemy flank, and then take cheeky diagonal shots across the table at targets with little to no possibility of responding - it's not half bad to go fishing 9s with four dice! The Redfury Nahab is also just as dangerous in melee as her KHD comrade (I know, I'm weak for pieces that are great at pivoting...), she still packs a Nanopulser, and getting to shoot a Redfury "for free" with an Impetuous Order is excellent value, even though you can't caim cover at that point!

    But to each their own, I'm just glad Nahabs are stirring conversation! :)
     
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  15. Grotnib

    Grotnib Well-Known Member

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    I don't know why I didn't pick this up when I read your post the first time, but I'm afraid Namurrs can't mix with Mukhtars in a Fireteam! :( It would be awesome if they could though...
     
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  16. Skjarr

    Skjarr EI Mouthpiece

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    I'm late to the party here but I'd like to say I've very much enjoyed the articles I've read so far @Grotnib so thanks for the time and effort.

    I have been playing my CA of late but I am now quite enthused about digging my Haqq back out. I played RTF quite a lot when they were first released but haven't been back to them in ages.
     
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  17. Danger Rose

    Danger Rose The Wrecking Belles

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    You're absolutely right! They are only "Count as Ghulam" or "1 can join a Janissaries Fireteam"; which goes to show how well versed I am with these units :yum:
     
  18. Grotnib

    Grotnib Well-Known Member

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    Great to hear that you're enjoying the blog! Welcome back to RTF! :)
     
  19. Grotnib

    Grotnib Well-Known Member

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    I've truly enjoyed taking a break from weekly posting, but this week I was able finish a piece I've been working on for a while! Here you can find my attempt at making a Beginner's Guide to RTF Fireteams! As the subject is rather rich and detailed, I'd (as always!) appreciate readers pointing out any mistakes or missing details to help me improve the article!
     
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  20. Koval

    Koval Well-Known Member

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    This is going to be very helpful for new players trying to figure out how to write lists. It's also interesting, because your takes on a lot of them are different from mine. I'll point out a couple teams I like that you didnt mention.

    Ghulam: I would recommend Yara over the Khawarij. She's a little less likely to kill soft targets, but she gunfights just as well for cheaper, and you already have NCO for the smoke. I also often take a sniper as a sixth member. That's especially useful as a cheap ARO piece when going second.

    Janissary Core: I'm a big fan of Janissary HMG, Hortlak AP Sniper, Leila, Rouhani, and either a Hortlak SMG, Bill, or Yara. It gives you a board-dominating sniper, direct HMG, shorter-range gunfighter, and two key support pieces while keeping the team pretty cheap.

    Character Core: Tarik, Leila, Rouhani, Yara, and Wild Bill. Technically legal because or Wild Bill. A gimmick that's surprisingly viable. It gives you a variety of different gunfighters, supported by Rouhani and Leila.

    Khawarij Haris: Personally, I'm not a fan of Tarik, but I've seen people be successful with him, the NCO, and either the doctor or Rouhani. It's definitely one of Tarik's best link options, since you can push his team up with the NCO.

    Mukhtar Haris: Red fury, doctor, and viral rifle. The biggest benefit of the haris, at least to me, is to position one of them to take burst 2 AROs and keep the other two alive. The viral rifle is best at this. I like the doctor as my combat specialist because of its ability to heal itself. The added versatility of hacking and the rifle is definitely tempting, though.

    Mukhtar Duo: Red fury and doctor, for a lot of the reasons above. I run this a lot more than the haris.

    Maggie+Rafiq: The Rafiq has the speed to keep up with Maggie, while still being able use its orders to get closer to buttons. Most importantly, it has a repeater to still let Leila cover Maggie from the safety of your Ghulam core.
     
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