So here's something I'd like YJ leadership do. It's suitably vicuous and a bit evil. Just let the JSA sympathizers go. Find out who they are, round them up (and their families) and deport them to Japan, Earth. Send them home tourist class (this is a humanitarian action, remember!), one way ticket, revoke citizenship and sell their properties cheap to real Yu Jing citizens from overpopulated areas. Let the Kuge deal with a refugee situation while gaining a hollow modicum of humanitarian points in the O12 assemblies
Shouldn't Yu Jing be getting a receipt for the amount of money they used to buy out Japan's debt? Or will that be conveniently be seen by O-12 as the price that Yu Jing has to pay for being the "baddies"?
Everything in due time, that's a line of pursuit that the Party would pursue separately. That is, of course, reparations that they could seek to leverage against Pan-O since Pan-O were instrumental in liberating the Kuge from their debt.
Mahta, those are the sorts of posts that are actually useful - there are clear actions points YJ can take going forward, so I think after reading the book, there are options and things don't have to be all doom and gloom.
Except the writing won't portray Yu Jing as having taken those points, because it would take away from the totality of their defeat and diminish the hyping of JSA they've been pushing to get it to sell.
I can appreciate the viciousness of such a line of reasoning, but I'd honestly like to see it avoided in the background, since I suspect it's going to offend a massive amount of people. Here's a historical parallel to what you're suggesting: The example of reselling houses cheaply once the unwanteds were done with is something the SA actively pursued in the early years of Hitler's rise to power (they were eventually stopped by the German police, who were worried that they'd undermine a fragile economy by crashing the housing market - very little consideration to the plight of the jews seems to have been given in these reports, and this is before the nazi party de facto took sole power in Germany). As the pressure to get rid of the jewish population in Nazi germany grew, and sending them east ended up not being viable (germany conquered to the east... And ended up with jews back in their country), a system had been in place for a while where a jewish citizen would be expected to pay for their exit from the country. In matter of fact, should a jewish person have more money than necessary to fund this, such excess funds would be used to help pay for the passage of others. A modicum of funds were left them for the sole reason that germany's neighbouring countries would otherwise refuse to accept them. The effect was stripping the jews of as much as possible in terms of valuables, and putting it into the nation's treasury, and then letting the now-poor jew be someone else's problem. Over time, for various reasons, sending the jews out of Germany grew untenable, and so, setting aside a territory for them was sought as a solution. For a while, the plan was to move the Jews (once they'd paid for it, of course) to Madagascar; it was thought that the territory was far enough away that the Germans wouldn't end up interested in it. Interestingly, the German administrator in charge of this (one Adolf Eichmann, of fame for the 1961 trial against him) worked with a jewish representative in Germany to achieve this effect (said jew ended up in Auschwitz later on, but that's a seperate and long story). It was known, of course, that Madagascar could only viably support a few hundred thousand people, not the literal millions of jews that would have ended up there - But this was not thought of as a problem initially. It was also an arrangement no one had discussed with the authorities down there - So in effect, it existed as a vaporous sort of non-solution solution to a problem that someone had to make work - A humanitarian catastrophe in the making who chief obstacle (never resolved) seemed to be lack of logistical power to make it happen. Eventually, the Wannsee Conference of 1942 replaced this plan with the infamous Final Solution to the Jewish problem in Europe. ... So I mean, it's a viable solution (for YJ assuming they really really don't care about the Japanese at this point), and it's not like it hasn't been attempted before. You could very well have the Shield division start to implement such programs in the name of "repatriating" the japanese traitors and secure Yu Jing for the benefit of its loyal citizens. It would not constitute any stretch of the imagination in terms of plausibility, compared to what's already happened in Uprising and the Treason campaign. But I feel I need to note, that if you find some of the people here outraged at the ethnic cleansing and moustache-twirling levels of evil Yu Jing has stooped to... Then I strongly suspect you'll see even more of it if this is the direction the background moves in. And it's also not exactly going to diminish the SS references being tossed around.
We're already doing genocide, I don't see how CB can really upset people any further here fluff wise.
There's a fair argument that YJ has stopped short of genocide and merely perpetrated mass murder (genocide requires an intent to destroy a group in whole or in part; the part targetted must be substantial enough to have an impact on the group as a whole). But the proposal above certainly constitutes ethnic cleansing. For reference: http://www.un.org/ar/preventgenocide/adviser/pdf/osapg_analysis_framework.pdf
Seems to tick the boxes for me. Genocide is pretty broad. Australia's stolen generation of Aboriginal children qualifies as genocide even though it seems far more humane than your run of the mill mass graves and chemical showers.
I get that point, and I was largely on board with it. But reading Uprising more closely I'm not sure that there's actually evidence of an intent to destroy the Japanese as a people. Rather there seems to be a disregard for collateral damage and a willingness to use terror as a tactic but the intent is to defeat the insurrectionists / JSA units. It's greyer than was initially believed prior to the release of Uprising. I'm not arguing that YJ's actions weren't abhorrent: I'm saying I'm neither convinced in intent nor degree that they represented an attempt to destroy the Japanese people. It's the difference between carpet bombing a city because you think it'll win you the war and carpet bombing a city with the objective of killing all its inhabitants. Yes: YJ's attitude to Japanese citizens prior to the Uprising was chauvinistic but they're substantially seen as useful citizens of the State. Moving to a policy of ethnic cleansing (through deportation of trouble makers initially) changes that position. Edit: the Stolen Generation is a genocide because its intent was the destruction of indigenous peoples as separate cultures and it was of such a significant degree that it's had significant effects on the indigenous populace.
Can we just stop using labels in a lazy attempt to participate in intellectual discussion. We can talk about how bad yu Jings actions are without attaching a label. In fact is much easier for people to listen to points when you don't.
No, mate, it's either Syrian or Israeli tactics. Maybe some Turkey using refugees to put pressure on the EU. Mostly Israel since both Syria and Hitler have a few too many comparisons that just doesn't have an analogy. Plus you need to remember that the Party has used massive subsidies to redistribute population several times before (the famous "Ghost cities" which are actually starting to be quite populous) Sure it'd piss people of. But it'd paint the Party as shrewd. Hell, if I really try I could probably find a lot more analogies. The tactic of relocating people and then sticking mostly innocent civilians in their homes has been used to drive populations from their homes for millenia.
Agreed. I doubt we're going to see a second Daiyokai sculpt. Which is another issue I have with the Uprising fluff. I've just been most vocal about the treatment of Yu Jing. That's why I said that Aleph had to be complicit in the Uprising, pushing the JSA-favorable events higher in the news than the YJ-favorable stuff. Might work, but as mentioned by @Hjiryon it's a rough place to go. No, YJ gets to use that to destroy Japan economically. They won't be able to issue government bonds, because YJ will constantly remind people that the Japanese reneged on their last bail-out. No one will trust Japan in a treaty, because the Kuge have openly reneged on their last major treaty (when they joined YJ). Basically, post-Uprising Japan is somewhere between Zimbabwe and North Korea, on the international trust scale(!) I was actually going to suggest parallels to the Japanese Internment in the US during WW2, where all their property was sold to a loyal white family. But I actually live relatively close to one of the Internment Camp locations. I tried that. People said, "It's not that bad." Then we got acts that at the very least meet the current definitions of War Crimes. I called them out for being against training and actively making the problem on the ground worse. People said, "It's not that bad!" Then we got a flooded city, which at the very least meets the current definition of Ethnic Cleansing, and I'm pretty sure we came to an agreement about 10 pages ago that it meets the current legal definition of Genocide. People said, "It's not that bad!" So no, I'm going to call a spade a fucking spade. Both Yu Jing and the JSA are guilty of War Crimes. Yu Jing is also guilty of Ethnic Cleansing and Genocide.
A major difference between the Jewish people and the Infinity Japanese is that the Infinity Japanese just perpetrated a violent insurrection with the express purpose of becoming independent. Literally 'sending them home' is 90%* what they want, because they want the evil and incredibly ridiculously (repeatedly) lucky Kuge to rule over them, instead of the YJ party, who are ruthless and treat them poorly... (definitely not because they harbour violent insurrectionist tendencies...) If they've all been brainwashed, which allegedly they have been, then surely they'd all want to go 'home'. Unless they've specifically been brainwashed to deliberately cause as much damage to Yu Jing as possible? * Ass pulled number.
It IS that bad: it's an ugly conflict by any standard. However, genocide requirs intent that I don't think is supported by the fluff. The section 'Kuraimori, Hell Under Martial Law' is the best evidence we get of the atrocities perpetrated by ISS against the Japanese civilian population who remain under YJ rule: while it's plausible that these actions are evidence of genocide it's impossible to distinguish them from the actions of an overly brutal occupation force. Equally, the destruction of the Kawaso dam is plausibly designed to undermine the JSA's defensive position in the peninsular, not to kill Japanese civilians (there's just a callous disregard to the fact that it will). This is why I'm not convinced that YJ has committed genocide: there's no unequivocal evidence. But their actions are unequivocally criminal. As Alphz points out, it's largely a tangential argument about labels: I find it interesting but it doesn't actually change how abhorent the actions were. Dead is dead.
To all that say Uprising is not that hard, remember there are two more pieces of fluff there (YanDun and the narrative tournament) I mentioned that. Psychoticstorm asnwered that it was too many people, and that how could Japan take care of that many people? O-12 would not allow that! As for the "re sell" of the housing... We are not aware of property there, frankly. But governments expropriate lands everyday, so the "deported" could get some money aside from the traveling ticket. Not to mention, use that to compensate for the terrain Japan has "expropriated" from JY, plus the interests of the debt YJ bought fro Japan 200 years ago. Also another point I mentioned... Heck, I even suggested that the best way to solve all this frigging problem was to ship all the Japanese to Varuna and use them as a cushion state against PanO with Teseum "tribute" to pay for the debt of the terrain they are granted, with possible increases on that debt if YJ had to provide extra protection against PanO. Not the same thing, not even by a wide margin. I think the closest example would be Cuba and the "escaped" emigrants at the beginning of Castro's revolution (my grandfather's brother got out from there, and several properties were left behind, from what my mother told me a few years ago). In that situation (you want to get out, and possibly to never come back), the state paying you both the trip and some money from the properties you leave behind is actually a better option than getting out with some luggage. The problem with that posture is, simply, that ALL Japanese are considered enemy combatants, per the YanDun fluff. So if YJ was not "really" targeting an ethnic/cultural group during the Uprising, it certainly is after. And I'm not even entering in the pre-Uprising "banned from cultural festivals", since it's not 100% defined (it's not the same thing to not having their festivals as "national off day" that, for example, being forbidden to celebrate any Japanese festival or cultural holiday).
Phaw, of course they could. If the alternative is to let - no force - Yu Jing suppress and systematically harass the Japanese population, effectively incarcerating them in their homes, then of course they'd be fine with Yu Jing allowing them to seek refugee status and let the Kuge government arrange for them to have a new future. Even if they can't, which is the entire point for Yu Jing to do this. Hell, O-12 allowed the JSA to stage an armed insurrection marked by a long range of war crimes against their own people, I'm sure this is trivial matters for them. Pan-O might disagree, though, since the refugees wouldn't be able to fly directly to JSA territory from Yu Jing territory...
In real world, this sh*tstorm would make a lot of heads roll in O-12, PanO, and (specially) YJ... As for the traveling, I think it was mentioned that there is a direct path from YJ to Earth, with a small 1-hour stop through realspace between 2 back holes (so it's YJ's home system - unmarked space for an hour - Solar System). Certainly, the most efficient and ruthless way for YJ to evict all Japanese people is to not forbid them to leave, give them some money for the travel if they apply for it (requiring of them to lose YJ's nationality), and make living in Kuraimori a miserable prospect, so they leave on their own. I doubt O-12 won't leave some back channel for people of Japanese ascendance to claim the recently created Japanese citizenship... unless, that is, Japan needs even more cuddling and protecting, and only those directly named by the Kuge or their puppet the Japanese Emperor get citizenship (not to mention I suspect all non-samurai/kuge would be 2nd rate citizens...)
That’s sad news for me, the Karakuri are like stickmans. But I won’t go to international tournaments so I’ll find some replacement. As for the faction being beyond the Soviet era attitude - again, a problem of perception. I remember that Bao troop poster, nothing short of brutal policing over political reasons, so no wonder the Japanese found a way to turn it around; better your own than being under other nations thumb, etc. ISS still are internal structure. A whole darn army! And they’ve dealt with something like a modern day Chechnya (end results being different). Also it is so much better to sell people A whole box of models instead of one. We got similar treatment with rescultps, repacks, etc. I don’t mind for as long as they don’t sell me the same models I already have. Similar to how it works today, you will get prevailing opinion based on prevailing coverage. So when the Japanese have their people dying, their armed forces will respond in the same fashion. Yu Jing can’t counter it with anything but the response, which is already justified, and they are military so they won’t even do it the way you described; if they do, it will be more official and regarded as a propaganda. So whatever the story, the Japanese end up overthrowing slavery of sorts. Yeah, but CA assimilates, noT the other way around. And I don’t see the EI being happy to share power with the the Party. So they are stuck there fighting everyone. My best bet is they will retreat to near complete isolation and invest heavily in their armies; in way turning YJ to completely militarized faction, with propaganda claiming everyone betrayed them...
