The problem (general not only YJ) is that the sectorials armies have taken over the Vanilla. The solutions they offer in terms of game play are far too advantageous. To return to YJ, players have over-play the JSA and ISS and now that the JSA are no longer there is only the ISS to represent YJ. In the current development of the game does not even ask me the usefulness of an Vanilla army Given the little consistency of it (except to allow to use figurines off sectorial). I think they tend to disappear. Sectorials should be theme games Solutions (internal conflict: ISS, external conflict: IA...). Each army should have a strong background to give it consistency but Vanilla has none, and with the release of IA she will even loses its outside defense roles. Finally, to get back to the way the ISS is going in terms of background. It doesn't bother me... We butchered dozens of people with "nice" soldiers and it didn't bother people, now that it's with "Villains" soldiers it should be a scandal? CA players seem much less attached to their morals...
Again there are no mentions of genocide, moving forward, the existence of MO does not mean PanO is a religious ethno-state, the existence of Bahram does not mean Haqq is a society of institutionalised assassins and so on and so on, the fact ISS exists and plays a role in Yu Jing society does not mean it defines Yu Jing in any way more than the fact MO exists within PanO.
Totally agree with that, but the problem is that currently we do not know what defines Yu Jing exactly... Apart the acts of the ISS (and more generally how the Japanese were treated before the uprising)
The generic fluff, a proud and confident people who believe and strive to be the best, lead by an authoritarian government that values tradition and assimilation. You play by the rules they set you are good and maybe even better than the other factions the lower class you are, if you don't play along, well... Yu Jing are not tolerant of dissidents.
ok, I'm gonna get a little wordy here, so I pre-emptively apologize. @psychoticstorm I think there's still a couple of issues there, maybe with translation. A faction cannot only be defined by the actions or fluff of a single sectorial, Yu Jing cannot only be defined by the actions or fluff of ISS, But ISS actions, ISS fluff, absolutely do contribute to the definition of Yu Jing. And a big part of how this has impacted has been that the content we've been getting in Uprising has either been sparse in Yu Jing perspectives or has presented only the one, that of the ISS (and, arguably, one specific unit thereof). If you are asked to define JSA using only CB fluff from 2018*, you get a pretty complete picture, an understanding of its heroism and honour front and center, its terrorism and oppression less prominent but definitely present. If you are asked to define Yu Jing, you've got the Yuandun division and when you dig down through their pile of corpses Sun Tze's reasoned voice being ignored by the faction. *one could also say 'using only Infinity fluff freely available without having to make book purchases' and things would be the same, and that's the stuff new players learning about the game are going to scan through to determine what the setting is all about. You have three scenarios for the future, I guess. 1) Yu Jing as a faction is in fact defined by the Yuandun Division: murderous genocide is the modus operandi. The people who are concerned about Flanderization are correct. I think this is a categorically bad outcome, reducing the depth and nuance of the faction and the setting, the choices made in presenting it steps on the road to the grimderp that is 40k. 2) ISS as a sectorial is defined by the Yuandun Division. A part of Yu Jing is murderous genocide. There are other parts, White Banner tenacity and Invincible heroism or what have you, that coexist alongside it. That is probably the best outcome, but it raises a number of issues, such as why those other parts have been largely unrepresented in this story, how much does the darkness of the ISS inherently overshadow the positive traits that define them by their inaction against it. I'm not sure this is a bad outcome, but the choices in presenting current material have been poor ones if this is the plan. 3) There absolutely does remain a sliver of a chance all this stuff is just the evils of the Yuandun Division, specifically and narrowly, a perversion that does not at all reflect the core nature of Yu Jing. In this case, we can guess at the events to surround our next sectorial release, everything will turn around when Invincibles He-Man evokes the power of StateEmpire Greyskull to strike down psychoCraneSkeletor or some other about-face. This possibility started as a small chance, and every new bit of info we get contributes directly to making it smaller, but it isn't completely impossible yet. The problem here is that CB seems to think, if this is in fact the plan, that Yu Jing needs to be defined by psychoCraneSkeletor in order for the twist to have impact. I think they're mistaken, pull up a chart of box office takings for M. Night Shyamalan for a general opinion people have on 'what a tweeeeeest', and the (temporary) choices for the story to get that buildup are producing negative outcomes that will make the positives from the reveal break even rather than be the resounding success it would have been with better planning. Three roads, three negative perspectives. Regardless of what was intended, there HAS to have been a better way, and even if changing things now is impossible hopefully they learn from errors and don't repeat them. The arguments that things cannot be altered due to the length of the design cycle is disappointing if true, I'd assumed the language errors in the pdf were due to it being rushed out without proper editing work. I... what? I hope we aren't having a discussion of whether or not this is about genocide, because that ship has already sailed. The whole intro fluff to the 5th mission of this narrative event is an ISS officer instructing his soldiers to commit genocide. The call for genocide isn't a theory, or a possibility, it is an explicitly stated fact. To believe that there have been no 'mentions' of genocide requires you deny the legitimacy of the whole narrative event document released by CB. I mean, I'll JUMP to meet you there, if a warcor and the main forum mod who has an Infinity miniature in his honour tells me that I should disregard that pdf then I will excitedly agree and blame the whole thing on Russian bots. Or perhaps you mean that while the commander of the Yuandun is talking about killing every person with an association to anything Japanese and making the entire island of Kuraimori run red with blood, he is going to fail and not carry out his genocidal tendencies, and thus while there is mention of desired-genocide there is no mention of accomplished-genocide?
Those are false comparisons. MO is basically the Church's PMC, it just happens to be by design and contract part of PanO's armed forces. Hassassin is Haqqs Intelligence service but also does its own thing and is de facto independent. ISS is an integral part of Yu Jing, being not only its police service, but also representing half of the Empire-State dicothomy.
Thank you both. Blech, I read through the YJ Fluff thread again for nothing... Is he mentioned anywhere else? That's a hint he's a loose cannon, but doesn't paint him as genocidal or anything... I think you mean at worst. Because the Yuandun Division is a bunch of ethnic-cleansing, baby-murdering Class A War Criminals. By their own fluff. If the Yuandun Division represents the Imperial Service, then the Imperial Service is a bunch of ethnic-cleansing, baby-murdering Class A War Criminals. FFS, PS, you live right next door to the Former Yugoslavia, you should be painfully aware of what the hell went on there during the 1990s! Exactly. Right now, the ISS is half the YJ's "persona". And the ISS persona is that of genocidal murderers under the guise of law enforcement. Even the 40k Inquisition tries to avoid outright genocide! What, The. Fuck. PS, did you not read the Yuandun Division's fluff? Or the Treason tournament fluff? Seriously? I'm starting to doubt your reading comprehension. Very much this. A character (in this case, a faction) can be hard, even ruthless, without being a genocidal maniac. Those are entirely separate things. I can only hope that at some point the entire Shield Division gets purged.
I think the narrative campaign looks like alot of fun and is definitely interesting. I like the 3 passive bonuses you're able to get. As far as downsides I think the jsa definitely got the best one followed by yj and then can. To those of you who are saying you wouldn't play in it why not? I'm not trying to be snarky or anything but I just can't wrap my head around it. I can understand not liking part of the fluff but is it really that bad to make you not play in a tournament? I'm interested to see how this is being taken in the Spanish forums. I have a theory that is obviously unfounded. I imagine that vast majority of people who are upset are from the USA, canada, and the uk. It has become very trendy and popular in these societies to become outraged and take offense especially for minorities. Just a hunch but that's just what it seems like to me. If the inclination is to always take up the side of the little guy than I can see people getting mad because now the faction they play has an element in it that is cracking down on the Japanese minority. I don't mind playing the bad guys and in fact there are times when I prefer it. We constantly play the hero in traditional games. It's a nice change of pace to be on the bad guys side every now and then. Again it doesn't mean you condone their actions or agree with them. I don't assume anyone playing yj, iss, or even the yuandun, are maniacs. I don't assume anyone who plays the empire in star wars games or the Germans in ww2 games to be evil.
It is not a bad and please never apologise for a good informative feedback, regardless the length, I do understand the concerns. The 5th mission briefing does not mean genocide sets the tone they are above the law and do not care about political repercussions, this implies that other ISS divisions are not the same so they are a specialised division with privileges, it also showcases what Yu Jing believe are the big issues, not PanO or JSA. Showcases that the conflict is personal for the commander of the division and his troops, they have lost a lot of comrades to terrorist attacks, not actual combat. They must attack everywhere at the same time and it is set that their division is a division used when an example is meant to be made much like when Hassassins publicly execute somebody, it also gives context to why this division is allowed such freedom, they are "terror weapons" their merciless reputation is important since it means their presence is enouph to pacify a region. Kinda logical, they face a continuous terrorist attack from a particular ethnicity and the terrorists hide in the population who has proven to support them to some extend, everybody is suspect it is routine military briefing to me, "pacify them" does not mean execute especially in context of the next quote This is not a call for genocide it is an authorisation for lethal force to any and all signs of resistance, quite harsh for a military operation involving civilian populations, don't get me wrong, but it is not a "go out and kill them all" Genocide is not this and we have seen several examples the past century(s) to sadly know what one is, Yu Jing may be authoritarian and quite harsh to anybody they perceive a threat especially their own, but they are not genocidal maniacs. It is exactly apt comparisons and I used them for this effect MOs are the churches PMC and a big promotion material for PanO extensively showcased, that does not make PanO a neochristian ethnostate, Bahram shares a lot of the same responsibilities with ISS and again is strongly promoted in the fluff, other factions have their own sectorials that are heavily promoted and are not representing the entirety of the faction for example CJC and Nomads been traders and space workers, not a nation of warriors for hire.
Your theory is wrong. People aren't hapoy on the Spanish side either. Xagroth is Spanish, I am reluctantly Spanish (because sadly the Catalan independence movement isn't half as competent and Deus Ex Machinaed as the Kuge). As for playing the bad guys, I think the whole "heroes are boring, antiheroes, assholes and villains are cooler" movement has become so usual that actual heroes are now the niche rarity. Everything is Game of Thrones, everyone is an asshole. That's my personal experience at least. I feel like my nice escapism has been polluted by monstersreminding me of how shitty Real Life is.
Yup, nothing to do with my faction getting gutted and portrayed as stupidly overzealous genocidal maniacs! I'm just in it for the trendiness of being outraged!
As a moderator I have to say lets not assume peoples motivations and thinking, it never leads to good results. That was generic and not directed to anyone in particular.
I will wargame a lot of things, including some real questionable behavior. For example, being a US submarine captain/crew during WW2. Sunk a lot of merchant ships, down with all hands. Those were at least nominally civilians that I killed, but they were directly supporting the warmaking capabilities of the Japanese. Like I said, I don't mind playing Soviets (Engineer Sapper battalion) or even Germans (Fallschirmjager, Panzer Lehr, Weird War 2 with IR gear, and even SS in Stalingrad). But I refuse to game war crimes.
Yet the religious lobbies of PanO dominate the Ressurections. Yet Haqquislam's government made Hassassin Bahran and its actions LEGAL and STATE SACTIONED. And O-12 "said" "ok, fine". Perhaps you think "institucionalized" means "industrialized". To me, it means "supported by the state". Ajax: overwhelmed by a body that gives so much data to his mind he can barely think (for Aleph's standards. A frigging Dakini has better WP). He carries a big hammer and two Combi Rifles. He cares little for personal safety (Berserker). His Shtick is protectic his comrades with his big body. Friggin example, there. In the Fluff. Which hurts a lot because the idea is there, yet the easy road was taken :( Unbalanced, per CB's Campaign System: the +1SWC is equal to 7 campaign points (and gives only ONE of the effects, the other being irrelevant to this); the +25 army points is equal to 16 campaign points (1 step over the previous); the "autowin initiative roll" is half of the 30 campaign points 4th step. So let's see. Yu Jing agrees to O-12's demands to cede its territories to the Japanese Nation, a loss you insisted several times to be irrelevant to YJ. But has a division of the I-SS supported by the Invincible Army that IGNORES O-12. Incidentally, I'd like to point that, by the RPG's APPROVED BY GUTIER fluff, the Oberhouse is a senate, unable to pass anything by itself, since it's decisions need to be ratified by one of the other small councils of O-12. So the dude is so BADLY TRAINED, INCOMPETENT and UNFIT FOR COMMAND he is inciting his troops to take out any and all resistance they find by lethal methods. Be it a Kempei sniper or a crying baby. Way to go. The quotes mean totally the opposite. I don't know about your native language, but in Spanish the main use is to convey a meaning that is different that those of the words used. Please tell me to what can be "pacify them" refering to in that context. Everybody loves that overvalued boring TVnovel. At least the TV show moves at less glacial speeds than the books, not that I managed to avoid boredom after the fourth book.
I believe these two statements need to be combined to make sense to PS. The YanDuan faction was created to HUNT JAPANESE. Not their forces. Not the Kempetai. Full on war crime division that was created with Corvus Belli sanction. How would you feel if there was a new Military Order who was formed to hunt down Sikhs after Acontecemento Explodes? It might make sense in the fluff, because it was written in the Acontecemento Explodes fluff and there were references to Ateks being a separate class of citizens ... but you are crossing a line. This is EXACTLY what just happened in Uprising and the new CBL faction.
I wasn't trying to imply they were happy but less upset. That does suck that that something you use for escapism is being influenced to not allow you to use it to it's full potential. Hopefully what ever is going on to make ya feel that real life is shitty changes. Not being sarcastic or snarky in any way I know having that feeling definitely sucks and I can understand how you wouldn't want that feeling to creep into your hobby.
@xagroth It means exactly that state supported, not everybody in Haqq is a state supported assassin and yes you can get resurrection by the social services or the other major religions in PanO if you so wish, church is simply the easiest way of them all.
I do not see any creation speech, seems to be an already established division with a set modus operati in been ruthless, their recent conflict has indeed made them one of the few experts in fighting JSA since this was not an issue in the past, PanO has far more regiments specialsied in fighting Japanese than Yu Jing for obvious reasons. Of course you will send in the best and the best will get the experience.
I'm sorry, but how you present something in writing is important. Pacify them may mean a whole lotta things "Pacify them" means bullet to the brain
