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The ethics of hollowmen

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by inane.imp, Aug 7, 2018.

  1. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    Yes and no. Here you are assuming that Tunguska may be using brains as pure wetware instead of hardware, and loading software onto it instead of normal software that would be created during normal development of the child. If this is possible is very debatable, and even if it is, it is debatable how ethical it is. However we can skip that debate we know this is not the case.
    The lore is clear Hollowmen have "rich and fulfilling" lives outside their slave job, which pretty much tells us they've matured into conscious humans. Otherwise a full VR focus would not be needed.
    You are completely incorrect on both these accounts. Neither torture nor indoctrination requires a that person is cognizant or somehow not a blank slate, even if we agree that a baby is as blank slate as you require (I think you are taking the blank slate to be far more blank that it is usually used as).
    Also, a large part of my point isn't the fact indoctrination takes place - any child is automatically indoctrinated into the culture it is raised - but rather, what is the format and aim of this indoctrination.
    Oh, and just so that it doesn't fall in the cracks, there is no proof all Tunguska uses is positive reinforcement, nor is it somehow extractable from context. In fact, given what they are doing, there is absolutely no reason to suppose they would shy away from any technique whatsoever.
    Sorry, but not in the mood for fanfiction at the moment. :) Especially not one so far removed from any known lore. :D
    Again, don't know where you got that I expect the child to have any kind of ethical codes. That's not the point at all. The point is where they end up, not where they started.
    I was talking about your specific example, not generally comparing it to raising dogs... Lets just drop this side discussion.
    Yes, this I can agree on.
     
  2. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Except that we have multiple examples in-canon of the Nomads not giving a damn about the sole AI law. Pi-Well is one you can even recruit to your battleforce, while Svengali and C3rvant3s are two mentioned in fluff.



    Yeah, that's why I have issues with the Hollowmen program.
     
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  3. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    I disagree, "rich and fulfilling" is a purely subjective conclussion, their "rich and fulfilling" might be MMO raiding, or creating works of fractal recursivity based on mathematical variables defined by the radioactive decay of a certain variation of Uranium.
    They are, to all effects, alien minds, not human ones. Self conscious, yeah. Aware they live inside in VR, not conclussive.

    For "Blank Slate" I refer a totally empty mind. Be aware that a brain requires time to develop, so it is very likely that sybernetic augmentation is used... and growth drugs, and who knows what else (also be aware that we are talking about the brain of a pre-natal being, so there is literally no base data for that brain to start chaining neurons). In effect, I think that Tunguska could do the same using the same brains that are created for artificial Lhosts, but then they would be able to use only volunteers or risk accusations of AI development (worst: it would be an AI whose growth is not controlled, nor directed).

    As for the positive reinforcement, my point is that while it is not stated that Tunguska uses it, Tunguska can (and indeed should, if it is at all intelligent and rational, something they clearly must be to survive keeping all those secrets from Aleph. Unless Aleph is equally incompetent, meaning ALL the Infintiy universe would be made of utter morons) use any and all reinforcements, choosing the most effective for the long run, instead of "lets torture the babies because we are evulz!!! trolololol!!!!"

    You misundertstand an assumption of the layers of the secret as fanfiction, but whatever.

    As for the rest, it's clear to me that you don't intend to discuss this in good faith, so I will stop losing time and making an effort to do so. Enjoy your black and white universe, where you are the shining paladin of righteousness and everything else is evulz.
    Just for the record, a faction's value gets measured by the opposition's.

    There is a difference between disguised, isolated situations, and a full military body. Even if PiWell and C3rvant3s were discovered by Aleph, those are not a full array of heavily armed, totally loyal murderbots remotely controlled by the Nomad ship filled with black money and secrets hide from Aleph that Aleph would love to discover.
    In other words, if Aleph could manage to get Hollow Men classified as "rogue AIs", then Tunguska would be in a very dire position, unable to use Circulars, under heavy and direct siege by Aleph, and with all factions forced to do something (starting by moving away their secrets and money).
    I'm quite aware that there is a more than likely chance that there are politics involved, and all the main factions but for Aleph are making pressure to keep Aleph out of Tunguska's hair, but the task would be far more harded if the Hollow Men mantained a poor secret.
    Plus, it's neat advertising of how Tunguska operates: a secret, inside a secret, inside a mistery.
     
  4. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    That's why I put it in quotes, I agree it is subjective.
    1) You have a very narrow definition of what makes a human mind,
    2) Even under your framework of human-alien mind, you make an assumption they do not fall under the human part (whether they're VR-aware or not is completely irrelevant to this). We do not have conclusive information one way or the other, but the default then is to assume they are within human range.
    I'm not sure what do you mean by pre-natal - do you mean before birth? If that is so, you are incorrect that babies are born as anything resembling a blank slate you imagine - brain starts development earlier. Also note that our brains are not like CPUs in that they are completely interchangeable, nor are they completely identical. And undeniably parts of our personalities are formed due to minute differences in our brains, which occur because biology is like that.
    You are missing my point, whether deliberately or mistakenly. I said there is no proof they are using ONLY positive reinforcement, and no reason to suppose so. Of course they are using it, but as one tool among others.
    It is fanfiction because it is in no way supported by any lore we have. Don't get me wrong, it's fine to have fanfiction of your own, but don't mistake it for actual lore.
    Thank you for that complete and absolute misrepresentation of my positions. ^^ If you think that is my position, then indeed there is no point in this discussion.
    No, that will only give you relative faction value. We can still judge them by our standards.
     
  5. MicroWarp

    MicroWarp Well-Known Member

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    Interesting discussion, but misses the point of their creation in the first place...

    How irredeemably corrupt is Tunguska that Dragnet needed to dredge the Black Labs to create an assault team with this level of loyalty?? Money is not the issue, but loyalty clearly is. The fluff doesn’t really talk about how the population treats them but I bet they’re shit scared of them, the Damocles Sword of Dragnet.

    You can’t even trust the security of your own citizens to a professional, well equipped and well paid military? When only brains locked in a secure vault monitored second to second for disloyalty will do? Tunguska must be a glass elevator, tastefully carpeted and well furnished corporate hellscale where death is a mafia whim away.

    I love it!
     
  6. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Tunguska is run by a bunch of professional paranoiacs. The same kind of people who plan the security for nuclear weapons. With the same desire for control/loyalty of troops.
     
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