1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra PolĂ­tica de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

The ethics of hollowmen

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by inane.imp, Aug 7, 2018.

  1. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2017
    Messages:
    630
    Likes Received:
    459
    To force an individual to not even have a concept of what is real and yet force them to act as weapons of war against your enemies.

    It's like if the people stuck in the matrix (in the movie of the same name) was also killing their own fellow man under the control of the machines without even knowing about it.

    Like hurting a person to make them mentally handicapped, training them to kill who ever you wish, and give them only a feeling that what they did was as fun as playing a video game.

    The hallow men creators are truly monstrous because of the enforced vr that the brains live in. Not the remote controlled bodies or mutated babies (those might also monstrous but pale in comparison)
     
    AdmiralJCJF likes this.
  2. Golem2God

    Golem2God Just a Kooky Kumotail serving others.

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Messages:
    3,097
    Likes Received:
    2,210
    @kinginyellow True. It is horrible when you take the time to really think about it.
     
  3. Civilized Barbarian

    Civilized Barbarian Praxis' Lead R&D Janitor

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2018
    Messages:
    222
    Likes Received:
    303
    I just want to say it feels super weird to read Hastur talking about ethics. Beyond that I eagerly await this thread's death.

    / Hollow men are unethical in every ethics system except utilitarianism. I don't think any Nomad player has claimed their existence is moral. Life sucks have a lollipop.
    // Aleph can still suck the big one.
    /// Slashies come in threes.
     
  4. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,000
    Likes Received:
    4,887
    Your whole argument shifts between Hollow Men and the Tunguska "executives" who are responsible for the problem, taking ancilliary comments as full focus points of the discussion. My position is, simply, that the Hollow Men of the fetus variety are a kind of "noble savage", they simple don't know better.

    And to have a moral and ethical code, you NEED instruction on such matters, people is not born with an absolute moral compass (just instincts that assign more value to certain behaviours, and discourage others. Further refination requires instructions and practice).

    Shame Tunguska, like all Nomad ships, acts in "international waters" and is thus not subjected to any national laws. O-12 not saying anything, however, is kinda... well, bipolar (either O-12 has ALL the cards and weight to dictate human politics, like in the Uprising, or has none, like in all the other situations... XD). It's funny because forbidding Nomad ships to use Circulars (or inflating their costs so they cannot use it at all) would be all that's needed to force them into more sane and human behaviour (for Aleph, in theory, it's just a matter of coding).

    Nope, dirty money storage and laundering is part of its main business. The Crypt (where data is stored securely and OUTSIDE Maya/Aleph) is their MAIN business.

    Blackmail information is less useful if the AI overseer knows it, after all.

    Neither abused nor brainwashed... just encouraged in the wanted direction. Like rearing kids, just ones that have grown up under heavy supervission of professional psychologist that shape them as desired...

    Legicitmacy avoids rebellions, however... and guerrilla wars can be ugly.

    I'm Aleph main... and here I am XD

    Yup, it gives a new dimension to the Cogito ergo Sum...

    The remote controlled bodies is just part of the settting, just mini-uhlans. The rest... yep. IF they are not given a taste of reality to compare, it is truly and utterly a FULL slavery situation.
     
  5. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    2,032
    Likes Received:
    2,686
    Let me clarify: my argument is and always was against Tunguska leaders, but also people running the Hollowmen program. I use Hollowmen behaviour to confirm my claims about what Hollowmen have been raised as, which in turn is the core of my ethical indictment of Tunguska (and more broadly, Nomad Nation).

    I think you mistook my claims Hollowmen were psychopaths as somehow directing my argument against them. It is merely a claim on their clinical status, to serve as a building stone in the wider argument.

    Even if we take your point about Hollowmen being somehow "savage" and simply raised without appropriate moral code, argument stands. The people ordering this and the people implementing this are still guilty of the worst kinds of crimes against humanity. It really matters little to my overall argument if Hollowmen are raised to be psychopaths or "just" cold-blooded killers.

    Well, you are partially correct, we don't have any kind of absolute moral compass indeed. But children do exhibit empathy all by themselves.

    This is neither here nor there. I use "crimes against humanity" here only in the sense of the definition we have for them now. Basically, it's an alternative way to say they are ethical monsters.

    Yes, you are correct, but the ultimate purpose of all their operations is maintaining their existing wealth and creating more.
     
  6. jherazob

    jherazob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    931
    Likes Received:
    1,419
  7. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,000
    Likes Received:
    4,887
    Weeeeeell... that can be really disputed. I agree they have some measure of short-term empathy, even when most (you can make 100% true claims when it comes to people, statsitic laws means we are closer to "infinity" than to single examples) are egoists, self-interested despots without self-control or long-term planning/consequence prevision capabilities.
    There are reason for "educating" children, after all.

    Well, "crimes against humanity" is a legal term, used in courts of law, mainly of international reach.

    I have a question here. Let's make a divide, on one part the "non-volunteer fetuses whose fate was dead or the Hollow Men program", and on the other the "I grab people and place them as disembodied brain jars, with full VR access so I can make use of them". Now, please have a look at the second (in time, if not popularity, since the other was Cthulhu's Mi'Go, also called the fungus from Yuggoth) reference that came to the people's minds when we knew about the Hollow Men (before the full article): Psycho Pass, specifically at the end of the first season when the true evaluation system was revealed (SPOILER: brain jars of criminals, specially psycopaths).
    What is your true answer to those?
     
  8. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    2,032
    Likes Received:
    2,686
    Indeed, but that is why appropriate education is necessary, although most children have the base empathy from which you can build. :)

    Well, yes. I was using it as such term but from our time, as a shorthand for what I consider the Nomad Nation to be guilty of. I do not claim that in Infinity universe O-12 still has exactly the same law on the books, or a way to enforce it even if it did.

    I don't understand the question you pose here, what do you mean "true answer"? And to what?

    Also note, I haven't watched Psycho Pass (well, I started but only a few episodes so far).
     
  9. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,000
    Likes Received:
    4,887
    Watch the full first season. Then come back here, there are relevant points in common.
     
  10. sarf

    sarf Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    905
    Likes Received:
    554
    It`s completely on rails.
    Aleph is good because HollowMen program is sin*.

    *but not for both
     
  11. TaHu

    TaHu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    225
    Likes Received:
    284
    People don`t like hollow men program? O_o
    It has a lot of bonuses: you don`t care about food and home. You become tacticool operator who kills bad guys, no physical training, no worries about being killed and your cube not extracted. I am also pretty sure that they can take days off to rent a body and live real life. Thats better then living poor life trying to collect enough money for surgery.
     
  12. sarf

    sarf Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    905
    Likes Received:
    554
    According to fluff article no, they can`t. No interactions with world outside of Matrix guarantee loyalty and absence of influence.
    That`s like lifetime contract with corporation without termination clause.
     
  13. McNamara

    McNamara Merc Rep

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2018
    Messages:
    538
    Likes Received:
    445
    But it's not clear if it's not possible because of technical reason (just not possible yet) or if Tunguska people in charge don't want them too.
    Calling them slaves because their brains are physically trapped in the hollow men program also doesn't quite work because of this. I think for slavery to exist there must be a real possible alternative, and it seems there just is non to those brains. To my knowledge the fluff isn't completely clear on these topics, but it's kinda what you need to know to properly argue for or against it.
     
  14. Brother Smoke

    Brother Smoke Bureau Trimurti Representative

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2017
    Messages:
    956
    Likes Received:
    1,464
    I still don't see the issue. Even if I were a parent with a child condemned to death due to disease I would see the hollow men program as a blessing.
     
    chromedog likes this.
  15. sarf

    sarf Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    905
    Likes Received:
    554
    There is pretty bold implication on second in article on perfect loyalty concept.
    And no, I`m not in the slavery is sin so game faction is sin prosecution camp. It is fun to play with these concepts in game fluff as well as with other transhumanism ideas.
     
  16. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,000
    Likes Received:
    4,887
    Hello, Cube technology means body surfing is possible. And there is a Fiday character without a cube who makes an "old style" backup (deep scan of the brain, takes hours) before going out on missions (fluff), so even if he's killed he can get a new body and keep going.
    So yeah, they could get a new body. So could Zoe, for that matter, but it has never been explained why not (she suffers a degenerative condition, essentially she falls to pieces, and has been replacing those pieces with cybernetic augments).

    Nah, at least my understanding of how the reward system of the hollow men program works is that only "Tunguska" can give them ANYTHING they want (in Virtual), and they made sure no one else can, so there is no way to bribe the Hollow Men. However... that means keeping them happy and grateful is still needed, since angering the HM means they can still turn against you (or take a "bribe" out of spite, for example).
     
  17. Cratesbane

    Cratesbane Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Messages:
    63
    Likes Received:
    97
    If you'll allow me to fasten my tinfoil hat for a second here.
    First off, HMs are cultivated by pseudo-AI. This isn't any better or worse than ALEPH, and the hypocrisy is startling. They may not be bribable by anyone outside the system, but if one of those AIs goes rogue, there will be a mess.
    Second, there is no reason to believe they only take fetuses with no other options. And Tunguska is in a wonderful position to figure out who has the financial need to sell their potential offspring when a new batch of HMs is needed.
     
  18. sarf

    sarf Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    905
    Likes Received:
    554
    This make a lot of sense.
    Lol, apparently not adopting Highlander Aleph motto "There could be only one AI" is hypocrisy))) Please, continue, this is amusing)))
     
  19. Cratesbane

    Cratesbane Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Messages:
    63
    Likes Received:
    97
    ALEPH: Let me take those pesky logistics off your hands. I understand that your brains are tiny, squishy things, and not terribly reliable! Let me help filter out all that nasty, mean real life, and let me worry about the Combined Army, the media you consume, and every other menial everyday activity.
    Nomads: We understand that we're entirely untrustworthy and easy to compromise, so we'll let pseudo AI teach these dehumanized individuals how to live, so that they're entirely dependent on obeying them to get their digital rewards.

    I'm not arguing that there should be only one AI. I'm not arguing that ALEPH, even if it's benevolent, is actually good for humanity. I'm arguing that the Nomads are in the process of becoming the very monsters they claim to fight.
     
  20. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,000
    Likes Received:
    4,887
    Mmmm... Aleph uses a part of herself to generate those "artificial personalities", while Tunguska uses human brains to run those "personalities raised by expert programs in VR". I'd say it is, in itself, as you say... but the origin of the brains defines the morality of the issue. Aleph does not "sacrify" people to create Myrmidons/Thorakitai/Ekdromoi/Dactils.
    Second is quite simple to define: If Demand of brains > Offer of dying people that can be "donated" (by themselves or their legal guardians), then yeah, "other sources" will be pursued. However, if there are more than enough dying babies in the Nomad ships, then they have no need to spread their resources, and the secret behind the Hollow Men (an installation or group of installations with brainjars that could be surgically attacked to remove all hollow men from action).

    Aleph is not good for humanity, Aleph acts as defined by her imposed nature (as a created intelligence), her imposed limitations, and her understanding of what is the better course of action inside those limits. That removes all morality from Aleph, frankly.

    Only the Observancy truly fights Aleph, the rest use that as a memetic weapon... you could say they are opportunistic :p