1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra PolĂ­tica de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

The definite N4 Comments, Suggestions, Ideas, wishlist's and Bugs that need fixing thread

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2018
    Messages:
    1,269
    Likes Received:
    2,244
    They're supposed to be there to fill holes in capability and classified coverage. And where the design team has hit the mark on that front, players will never notice the difference between AVA8-10 and AVA total. But where the design team makes a mistake with something, or the meta shifts in an unexpected way as a result of some emergent element a year down the line, having a high-but-existant AVA limit provides a soft insurance policy against the unexpected.
     
    Ariwch, Berjiz, toadchild and 7 others like this.
  2. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    979
    Likes Received:
    2,058
    You speak as if there were dozens of impetuous models available for every faction and not what, 2-3 on every faction (And some factions have less, like PanO and Tohaa, while others have more, like Combined Army)? That makes them as common in terms of options as Heavy Infantry. Less common actually as most factions have 4 options of HI or more.

    What makes impetuous a 'problem' and I say it very lightly because I don't think the problem is impetuous the rule itself, but the way the costs are calculated in this game that allows for cheap, irregular impetuous troops to be so cost effective. Think about it: At 6 points a pop a morlock brings a lot of utility and both defensive and offensive abilities for so cheap, there's little reason not to include one.

    Costs need to be recalculated, that is true. But saying "oh, just remove this aspect from the game" is kinda silly. I mean, I am all for clarifying how impetuous interacts with stuff like super jump and climbing plus more clearly, and all for even increasing the cost of the impetuous troops (although there should be a balance. Daturazi would be unplayable if they cost 1-2 points more)

    I do hope N4 rebalances costs, really. A lot of the issues brought up in this thread seem to boil down to "rework the cost of this unit/unit type"
     
    Ariwch, Berjiz, toadchild and 3 others like this.
  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    7,321
    Likes Received:
    9,177
    I think the two of you are seeing the same problem, but I'd just like to correct the numbers; Pan-O has 9 such units, most of them Knights, because I'm confident that what @the huanglong is targeting is the discount from Frenzy "L1" through "L3" rather than the actual Frenzy rule. Of these 9, Krakot Renegades makes up an AVA of 2, and they are renowned for being cost effective. Most other vanilla factions add Libertos to this roster, another generally acknowledged very cost effective unit. For some fairly high performing members at ITS tournaments, that's an AVA of 3 that's auto-include.

    Speaking of Daturazi, as I have no experience with them, are they as much of a self-handicap as Shaolin when armed with a real gun rather than just the basic Chain Rifle model? My own perception is that most of these types of units are a bit too cost effective when you pick the Chain Rifle profile while the Combi models tend to be... punitively priced.
    (And changes to Frenzy discount should be parried with changes to CC stat pricing, IMO)
     
  4. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    979
    Likes Received:
    2,058
    Daturazi are at a weird place right now. The 14 points profiles are okaish for what they do, but are pretty outclassed by krakots if you're not bringing smoke for any reason (and in the case of MAF, because you get to link Oznats and Anyat, sometimes you just get smoke from elsewhere and the daturazi stay home).

    The problem is someone in CB decided the CA line infantry MUST cost 14 points, and that really fucks up the Daturazi, as while they are admittedly good, they fall just short of awesome when compared with other premium warbands like Makaul and Varangians.
     
    Mahtamori likes this.
  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    7,321
    Likes Received:
    9,177
    Rules cleanup is an on going topic, I know, so this might've been mentioned before.

    Whatever is scenery for cover? The rules rely on the distinction between scenery and play surface for a bunch of rules, cover prime among them but also Airborne Deployment directly and kind of Speculative Fire as well.
    Basic logic/addition-division. How, when and in what order mathematic operations are applied has been requested by a lot of new players. But more importantly, ammo is prominently noted as "AP/Shock" or similar, but the rule is buried in traits under Light Multi instead of featuring next to the logical kin "+"
    Can I shotgun charge? So there's a rule where if you have an Impact Template Weapon touch an enemy that is Engaged, the shot is cancelled. There are no rules for exceptions for the shooter like there is for Direct Template Weapons. Instead there's an example under Impersonation where a Fiday leaving Impersonation can do this and it's left to the player to decide how specific the example is.
     
  6. fari

    fari CRISTASOL, EL LIQUIDO DE LOS DIOSES

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    2,586
    Likes Received:
    2,430
    are there problems with the ammo and the / and + symbols? Is only comprehensive reading.
    A+B, both.
    A/B, choose one
     
    #1806 fari, Feb 11, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2020
    Tourniquet and Florian Hanke like this.
  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    7,321
    Likes Received:
    9,177
    Question keeps cropping up, so it can't hurt to spare a few words clarifying it on edition change.
    Also, choose one per skill or per burst? Or, like skill1/skill2, on deployment? There's also existed rules for combining them, as well as resulting in reduced burst.
     
    meikyoushisui likes this.
  8. fari

    fari CRISTASOL, EL LIQUIDO DE LOS DIOSES

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    2,586
    Likes Received:
    2,430
    The rules for combining ammo dissapeared in N3, right?
     
  9. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    4,498
    Likes Received:
    5,355
    More uses for CTs could be interesting. Something like +6 WIP to the Lt roll as an example.

    I think this could be incorporated with soft buffs to lower order counts (ie. +2 CT for under 10 CG slots, +1 for under 15 CG slots).
     
    emperorsaistone likes this.
  10. spears

    spears Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2017
    Messages:
    291
    Likes Received:
    376
    Definitely this, i'm still surprised never to have seen 20 hungries run as a supplement to standard Ca lists.
     
    RobertShepherd likes this.
  11. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    3,169
    Likes Received:
    4,199
    There are very few people who had the cash to pay for 20 of the old Hungries, or the patience to assemble 20 of the new ones.

    And not every meta is as tolerant as mine of off-brand proxies (no matter how good the AvP Aliens look in the role).
     
  12. spears

    spears Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2017
    Messages:
    291
    Likes Received:
    376
    Which isn't exactly a defence for Ava T. Hell you don't even need off brand proxies you just need a To to agree to Cb proxies as per the ITS rules. As pointed out though it isn't really a present issue but it would be better to address it before somebody does spend their time glueing on 20 Hungries alien penises than afterwards.
     
  13. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2017
    Messages:
    1,339
    Likes Received:
    2,560
    R A N D O M S U G G E S T I O N S

    :3:S7 TAGs should be able to go prone at S4. They should also become S4 when unconscious.

    :3:Rather than tactical awareness, TAGs and their pilots should each generate an order. This would make disembarking when unconscious a lot more intuitive.

    :3:Horrible ejection systems on Iguana and Anaconda should be reworked or scrapped

    :3:Isolated state should be cancelled on successful reset.
     
    #1813 the huanglong, Feb 12, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2020
    Robock, Dragonstriker, Berjiz and 5 others like this.
  14. Del S

    Del S Yujing(snow)ball

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2017
    Messages:
    1,083
    Likes Received:
    2,386
    Prone states that alter silhouette beyond 0 or bust would be nice, but maybe needs intermediate silhouette or other adjustments. 2 becomes 0 or 1, 5 becomes 3, 7 becomes 4, anything else usually cannot prone right now anyway.

    Pilot generates an irregular that the TAG can use. They dismount, they have that order, TAG does not generate order.

    Ejections are just strange, yeah.

    Jammers would be less hated then. Still loathed for other reasons but they'd be a lesser deal.
     
    Xeurian likes this.
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    7,321
    Likes Received:
    9,177
    Like 'em all; Ejection System should simply be free of charge (seems to cost 1 STR atm, which is a lot), but I do note that while a Guijia becomes decent with an extra order, e.g. Sphinx goes a bit bonkers with an extra.
     
    Xeurian and the huanglong like this.
  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    7,321
    Likes Received:
    9,177
    Let's see... Just theorizing how things could look like when it comes to hacking.

    There's 37 programs at the moment.
    There are 5 programs that causes IMM-1; these can probably be reduced to one or two programs depending on if AHDs are retained
    There are 6 programs that causes loss of wounds; these can probably be reduced to one or two programs depending on if KHDs are retained
    There are 4 EVO-only programs that are near duplicates of other supportware; these can probably be replaced with a modifier directly on the EVO device
    There are 3 programs that specifically protects the user from hacking; these can probably be reduced to one.
    There are 3 programs that are specifically designed to counter TAGs; these can probably be reduced to one or two depending on if possession keeps TAG focus.
    There 2 additional programs that technically causes loss of wounds (Maestro and Goodnight); these can probably be scrapped entirely
    Oblivion and Exile are causing some serious balance issues and I'd personally prefer it to be scrapped.
    TeamPro is seldom used and could probably be integrated into vanilla and the No2 effect scrapped in favour of slightly more units with an No2 profile
    This leaves Lockpick, Spotlight, Controlled Jump, White Noise, Cybermask and Exorcism

    As for the myriad of Hacking devices, I can see how instead of creating Hacking Program pollution, something akin to this could be adopted;
    Hacking Device is the gold standard and will probably be kept.
    Hacking Device Plus can probably be simplified to provide a +3 MOD to hacking. For fluff reasons.
    Assault Hacking Devices could be simplified to ignore Firewalls when using Carbonite, Overlord and Expel.
    Killer Hacking Devices could be simplified to ignore Firewalls when using Redrum.
    Defensive Hacking Device feels redundant and can probably be scrapped.
    White Hacking Device feels redundant and can probably be scrapped.
    EI Hacking Device could be simplified to provide a -3 MOD to opponent value in a Face to Face. For fluff reasons.
    EVO Hacking Device could be simplified to apply to all eligible targets when using Supportware in addition to other current passive effects. The No2 effect from TeamPro could be a passive.
    Upgrades could be simplified to provide a +3 MOD to the upgraded program.

    This could see the program list be reduced to 15 programs, less than half of current;
    Carbonite, Redrum, Assisted Fire, Enhanced Reaction, Faerie Dust, Cybermask, Counter-strike, Overlord, Expel, Lockpick, Spotlight, Controlled Jump, Nav Point Scrambling, White Noise and Exorcism.
    HD would have access to all but Cybermask and White Noise, EVO would have access to all, AHD would have access to non-damaging attacks, Lockpick, Spotlight and Cybermask, and KHD would have access to damaging attacks, Lockpick, Spotlight and Cybermask.
    Of these;
    Nav Point Scrambling could provide a stacking -3 MOD to Airborne Deployment and Guided ammo
    Counter-Strike needs to have its requirement to already be a target scrapped
    Exorcism needs to be an ARO-capable program that clears POS on Ghosts, ISO on anyone and Locked on TAGs.
    Faerie Dust targets either hackers, REMs, HI or TAGs - pick one. EVO would target all at once.
    Spotlight needs to be more potent, probably B2. Maybe even scrapping the negative MOD.*
    Lockpick could be a universal environment manipulation tool; unlocks or interacts with anything electronic inside the hacking area
    Overlord altered to target units with Ghost. Any Ghost. Even Jumper. Pretty please?
    Expel also needs to put the TAG in Locked state.
    White Noise is extremely potent and probably needs to be restricted, but the current restriction seems a bit too overly strict, possibly to AHDs?

    Simplifying this even further for C1;
    The purpose of hackers in C1 should be to showcase how Hacking can be used to create asymmetrical engagements without complicating things too much.
    All hacking devices but the standard Hacking Device are probably outside the purpose of C1.
    All hacking programs but Carbonite and Redrum are probably outside the purpose of C1. Possibly Assisted Fire as well.
    The price of Hackers in C1 probably needs to be reduced compared to N4.

    * Simply making Spotlight a effective way of putting targets into Marked state should be enough to qualify as being more effective against non-hackers.
     
    Jumara, Abrilete, wes-o-matic and 3 others like this.
  17. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    4,498
    Likes Received:
    5,355
    You can simplify a lot of programs simply by putting the MODs on the Device rather than the program.

    So if AHDs add +1B (in active) and +3 WIP to all CLAWS you can get rid of Basilisk, Carbonite, Oblivion* and Overlord.

    * Assuming Blackout and Oblivion outcomes are merged, which would simplify things a lot (ISO-1 would work).

    The same works for KHDs: you can happily make them Brainblast +1 B (in active) and -3 OPP WIP.

    The outcome isn't exactly the same as the current crop of programs but it's in the ballpark.

    As you say, HD+ can easily be just a HD with +3 WIP.

    Anything that aren't the core HD programs should be listed on the profile as Upgrades.
     
  18. Kiwi Steve

    Kiwi Steve Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2018
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    126
    Ammo types based on the type of hacking device could be an easy change too.

    For example any hacking program on HD is just a normal save, but HD+ may allow DA/shock ammo. This would make the HD+ basicly a hacking multi rifle, and would make it easier to remember.

    Ammo for KHD/AHD could be target dependent perhaps (I.E bonus vs TAG or vs hacker).

    this might combine nicely with other bonuses to make each device unique while still running basically the same programs
     
    Xeurian and Mahtamori like this.
  19. Modock

    Modock Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2017
    Messages:
    466
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Some really great ideas.
     
    Xeurian likes this.
  20. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    4,498
    Likes Received:
    5,355
    There's 4 different implementations of "inactive" states (Puppetmaster, Inactive Proxy L1, Trooper with Proxy LZ, Remote Presence TAG without its Bot) that all work differently.

    If inactive states remain in the game (and I'm not convinced that they should), make Inactive a state with a consistent set of rules for every time it comes up.
     
    Abrilete, Berjiz, LaughinGod and 6 others like this.