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The definite N4 Comments, Suggestions, Ideas, wishlist's and Bugs that need fixing thread

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Actually really like the idea to reduce Combat Groups to 8.
    Single piece rambos like Achilles, Tarik, Sheshkin or a Kriza Borac in a list with 2 whole combat groups are currently damn strong.
    Fueling a high performance troop with chaff is probably a bit too powerful right now and a detriment to the tactical aspects of Infinity. Limiting the amount of Orders a single piece can spend per turn, either by reducing combat group size or by capping it directly, would be interesting to see.
     
  2. SpectralOwl

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    There's been a bit of discussion about making AD3+ more useful, I recently thought that it might be interesting allowing those skills to be used in reverse by allowing a PHY roll with all standard modifiers, including Dispersion risk, as an Entire Order Skill to leave the table and return to their deployment state. There'd have to be restrictions on using the skill while holding Supplies boxes etc. but it would make the skill very interesting in play, allowing very rapid redeployment of units to places where they are needed at the risk of a bad Dispersion wasting even more time and endangering the troop. This would make Superior Combat Jump notably superior for the added safety of being able to deviate to the DZ, and would make LTs with the AD skill and Kirpal Singh less of a joke.
     
  3. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    The other suggestion I always liked for AD3+ troopers was making them immune to fall damage, gives an advantage to the higher levels even if you end up choosing AD2.
     
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  4. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    I liked some of the discussion about setting a regular order cap based off of the lieutenant's WIP. It's a kind of thematic and interesting approach to reigning in extremes of spammy lists. I want to add that something like that doesn't necessarily have to limit the number of troopers; just the number of orders you can generate. You could have a system where you have 15 models but only get 13 orders since your lieutenant is WIP 13. That would allow you to lose 2 models without eating into your order pool.
     
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  5. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Sounds great, something like..
    Superjump:Y - works like regular Superjump -> the user can jump as a short Skill, but only vertical or downwards. Not full Superjump since the AD trusters are only designed to break descent and not for flight.
     
  6. Dragonstriker

    Dragonstriker That wizard came from the moon.

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    Cross posting for emphasis.
    A Flying Daoying

    @Janzerker said:
    “Yes, basically what I commented a few posts ago. After comparing so much all the HIs from all the factions, and after the losses in CC expertise or even command skills being shared so freely (all TAGs with Tac Awar, yeah) I'm of the opinion that YuJing needs a full rework and a redesign of their identity. And the the right place to do that is N4. Now it's the time. If designers miss that opportunity and they don't do an in depth redesign of the YuJing faction then they might as well erase it from the game. Definitively, the redesign of YuJing should be one of the main features of N4.

    There's no point in having 18 different profiles of HIs when many of them overlap in functions. Just put an example Zuyong, Wuming, Shang Ji and Qiang Gao are the same. Also many HI profiles have become pretty bland. One of the main points decided for YJ in N3 is that as the HI faction their HIs should have a huge selection of options in comparsion with PanO and the other factions. That is no longer true. One of my biggest disappointments with IA profiles was the scarce variety of equipment options for each profile. In comparison all PanO knights got a huge variety of options for their profiles with tons of specialists and the same seems to apply for the latest HI of the other armies. Whenever I look at knight profiles I see what YuJing HIs were meant to be from the beginning of the game: flexible units good at shooting and CC that can accomplish objectives on their own. The problem was always the bloat of CC skills made the units quite expensive. But knights solved this with the frenzy exploit. Despite knights in the beginning were just meant to be bland units overbloated with cc skills for self defense, PanO players complained so much that now they got perfectly self sufficient units that can fight and accomplish objectives.

    Also one of our identities as HI faction was meant to be the monopoly of remote presence HIs. We had SuJIan and Karakuri. That was a strong identity they could have developed more. With Uprising we lost Karakuri, furthermore Nomads got Hollomen and more recently O12 got the Betatrooper.

    On the other hand, YuJing doesn't compete at CC anymore, yet the faction continues paying the tax in CC bloat for a supposed expertise they don't hold anymore. We could say we are at the same level tha Nomads below factions like CA, Haqqislam that are better than YJ and far away from the CC monsters of Aleph and JSA. We have Shaolin which is cool but without DA or E/M CCW unlike Morlocks. We have ninja that makes you doubt it's a YJ unit. Then the only CC HIs are Crane, which is expensive, and Hulang which can barely make his work. That's it.

    Last but not least, the claimed Command faction theory. But given the fact it's not difficult for many factions to get a NCO + TacAwar (using a TAG), many armies can get already 12 orders with a single group. Even Ramah can force 13 orders.

    And finally the destruction of the conception of HI. Thanks to the recent proliferation of profiles of IL/MI with NWI + Shock/Bio immunity that put to shame the equivalent HIs. And which was previously followed by an increase of anti HI silver bullets (E/M ammo weapons galore) between all armies.

    Therefore, all these things, for a faction that was initially designed with CC and HI as their strong points and suffers strong restrictions because of that (CC tax, very polarised roster with shitty ILs, good but expensive HIs and nothing in between due to scarcity of MIs and TAGs), it means YJ doesn't stand true to any of them anymore and needs a rework.”

    @Koni @HellLois @Bostria @Interruptor
     
    #1686 Dragonstriker, Jan 21, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2020
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  7. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Really not a fan of people assuming their personal gains are more important than the state of the game as a whole.
    YJ is getting another Sectorial to flesh them out with N4 and as a Vanilla Faction is still way ahead of Sectorials that are really lagging behind the power curve like MRRF, Morats, MO, every Haqq Sectorial (except Dashat :upside_down_face:)...

    Keep that Uprising reparation talk out of here please. Time to let it go with White Banner and N4 on the horizon for guaranteed big changes to everything. Bigger picture, level the playing field and all that. Thanks.
     
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  8. The Holy Knight

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    @Dragonstriker: this is a general topic, why you don't write your personal opinions of your army in the apposite topic in faction subforum...
     
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  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Faction identity is an important topic, otherwise they might as well do away with the faction divisions and have use construct lists more akin to a generic mercenary company drafting from several disparate factions across the 'verse in a similar way to how other games are doing it.

    Having spent a lot of time with O-12, a vanilla faction barely reaching the shoulders of ISS in terms of unit numbers, I can say that it's not at all the number of profiles but the variety ("how you use it" or in this case "what you're able to use") that is important and while Uprising removed one particular notable tool, nearly all other tools were duplicates and often not even most worthwhile in faction. ISS still behaves according to the old "identity" of Yu Jing with low-tech smoke, high-tech visors, competent melee units and incompetent filler troops. Janzerker's post is, however, spot-on if you limit scope to IA only.

    So... let's possibly agree to leave discussions on Yu Jing out of it and maybe use it as a starting point for discussion on the importance or lack of importance of faction identity?

    Or put differently; smoke in Pan-O when? When hell freeze over or Satan is busy making snow angels?

    Yeah... I do think Henshini asked Janzerker to cross-post it in the Yu Jing N4 thread and not have it cross-posted here...
     
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  10. CAnon

    CAnon Well-Known Member

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    @Teslarod @The Holy Knight It was posted in the Yu Jing forum, by Janzerker, then crossposted here. Unsurprisingly, people don't expect CB to read every thread in every subforum for both languages, so sending the relevant highlights here is incredibly helpful for them. There have been no complaints with rules-board crossposts, so why does this one cause you such grievance?

    Now, I'll assume you're not simply speaking from a place of spite and attempt to address those sectorials (sectorials, who are intended to be more limited than vanilla factions by design) who you singled out as being "worse off" than all of Yu Jing.

    Mrrf and QK - both discontinued. Could CB have given them a bit more love in their last update? Sure. But nonetheless, QK can still punch way above their weight with mixed links and wildcards, probably leaving them in a better place than YJ.

    Morats and MO - have always struggled, due to the way CB prices veteran/HI respectively. Still gained a lot of new linked options, though probably not enough to be better than YJ as a whole.

    HB and RTF - ARE YOU $#^*/#@$ KIDDING ME? They're no Tohaa or OSS, sure, but HB regularly places top10 at the Interplanetary. Ghazi and Tarik cheese respectively would place them above YJ even without access to any of the other great stuff they get. Are you a Haqq player, perchance? Or have you just never bothered to look over at them in Army Infinity?

    You didn't mention them, but I'll throw in Druze as well as a freebie, because they were clearly designed in a different era and so have all the limitations of sectorials but with an even smaller roster.

    So that's, what, 4 whole sectorials (one of which is OOP) that are worse than a vanilla faction? And you're suggesting they shouldn't try to get this brought to CB's attention because new releases are due and they are somehow magically going to address their biggest concerns without any clear feedback? When the previous track record is far from perfect - releasing IA with all its flaws and then giving the gimmick that makes them playable straight over to Dashat in the next book? As if IA was merely beta-testing for this "cool new" NA2 army that they actually wanted to release.

    Give me a break, buddy.
    I play Combined/Shas, by the way.
     
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  11. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Hang on, are you seriously claiming vanilla YJ is in a bad place at present from the POV of factional performance?

    Because it's one thing to say "HI in YJ are a mess of overlapping redundant profiles, and need work put into them so that they all feel unique and are worthwhile to field and that YJ no longer can really claim to be 'the CC sectorial' " and entirely another to say that "vanilla YJ is a shit-tier faction".

    Look, I'll absolutely accept that IA is below the power curve. But IA is not YJ.

    ----

    That being said, I do think it's worth discussing 'factional character': I've done a fair bit of it in the Nomads forum.

    First, CB has obviously moved away from the old Human Sphere faction emphasis: this is clear to me in Nomads (who are less MI focussed now than ever and are seen by some - particularly in their sectorials - as being HI focussed) and to others in YJ.

    I think part of the problem is 'vanilla' vs 'sectorial' design doesn't necessarily mature well. With few exceptions any profile added to a sectorial is also added to vanilla, which results in measures added to make a sectorial competitive and give it character also affecting Vanilla's balance and character. The addition of 'sectorial only profiles' is one response to this. I think this and similar options need to be explored more: SWC variation, troops that are AVA 0 in Vanilla, non-Merc sectorial only characters. Ultimately, this isn't a problem limited to YJ: Nomads have it (Kriza are an example of a profile that's arguably needed in the sectorial but aren't necessary in vanilla) as does PanO (Joan distorts a lot of vanilla list building).
     
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  12. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
    Warcor

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    I do agree that people shouldn't put personal gains in front of the improvement of the game, however, discussing faction identity is not the same thing.

    I've talked with some veteran Ariadna players who feel upset that other factions can run swarms of low cost units with better efficiency than Ariadna, for example. And there is the feeling that even though YuJing has more HI options than other armies, it doesn't matter much when Nomads and PanO get to have more competent or interesting options to pick from, for example.

    Faction identity is important. People like to belong, and being able to identify instantly what is your faction's main point is a big deal in how players relate to their specific armies. So yeah, I do think N4 is a good moment to review what is each faction's identity and make sure they are designed with said identity in mind.
     
  13. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    "People like to belong" is the core problem of this world. It mostly leads to a bunch of butthurt feeding a "us against them" mentality, no thanks.
    N4 is one something for everyone,I'd prefer a "we with each other mentality", rather than everyone getting their own little special snowflake treatment.
    Finetuning is for later, make the core mechanics work on a fundamental level first. Do something about Manned TAGs, standard MI and HI. Hit some stuff with the nerfbat, reign in the idiocy that is handing Wildcards out like candy. Add Profiles so every faction has a realistic shot at all ITS missions.

    Screw special treatment, do that later.
    And when they do it, use the damn ITS data instead of the guys pretending to be a broken records yelling the same overused slogans over and over for years after everyone else has moved on.

    I play everything that seems interesting. Doesn't have to be my army, doesn't have to be OP, just has to be playable within the parameters of the game. If I want OP stuff I play Aleph, I'd buy a Shas army because they're fun and I like the mechanics, not because they're the new hot shit.
    However - I do avoid "bad" Sectorials and Factions like the plague. Give us that for as many Factions and Sectorials and you'll get a good place to start N4 from. Tightly knitted Faction identity is unrealistic at this point, especially for Vanilla armies. Do it by select Profile choices, pull it off for the Sectorials, but stop dreaming about it for Vanilla.
    It's not fun being stuck with more down than upsides, having to use suboptimal tools for important jobs when there's Faction's and Sectorials that do literally everything well. In a sense, Faction identity is precisely what makes the currently bad Sectorials so bad.

    No offense that ship has sailed a long time ago, O-12 and NA2 (with JSA notably exempt) are all the proof you need for that. As a new flavour of existing traits found in other Factions they're not special by nature.
    For anyone here since N2 willing to take a step back and take a look at the whole thing this should be obvious. New releases have patched gaps and added new options to existing Factions left right and center. Well defined faction identity isn't possible without flat out axing things like the Kriza Borac, Shukra, Sukeul, Draal, Zulu Cobras or Equipment like EI KHDs for CA.
    All these additions patched things over and built bridges across supposed borders. And the game as a game is better and more enjoyable for it.
    What needs fixing is the botched experiments that didn't come out the right way. For YJ IA is a definite candidate on that front and N4 should do something to address it.
     
    #1693 Teslarod, Jan 21, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I think what @inane.imp writes on Nomads is too damned true. Value and identity are both best expressed through cost efficiency and tool access. 10 variations of Light Infantry* in one faction doesn't matter if another faction has one single Light Infantry with access to all mission critical tools at a reasonable reliability, the latter faction would be crowned the Light Infantry faction because you'd see that Light Infantry each game scoring objectives and doing combat while the prior faction they'd be standing on the sidelines.

    * "But doesn't Mahtamori only go on about Yu Jing?" you ask. Remember back when Yu Jing had the nearly the highest number of Light Infantry, on par with Haqq? No? Well, that's 'cause YJ LI has never been sufficiently loaded on tools or loaded with the wrong tools to make a difference.
     
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  15. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    Actually, on the topic of ''identities'' in general, it would be actually nice to see something about the unit type identities or have unit types axed altogether and just have two new skills to cover for the two remaining traits that truly define two of them from the rest. ( Namely, TAGs/REMs being unable to go prone and their dodge penalties. Everything else in the game is covered by pre-existing skills or just the numbers in their stat cards. ).

    IDK if I'm the only one here, but seriously, what is the difference between LI and SK now? 'Cause I fail to see one anymore. Both can be found to have marker states, deployment-related skills, low ARM, deployable equipment, etc.
    You could also lump in WB here as well: yeah, ''irregular + impetuous'' is the stereotype for WB, but it's not like there's ''regular frenzy'' WBs, like Jaguars, out there or a good bunch of impetuous LI out there, like Ghazis or Kuang Shis.

    Kinda makes unit types feel a bit pointless if there's nothing much to them if you ask me. T:
     
  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I don't know, but generally it seems FD2 and Infiltration defines the border between SK and LI (with easily identifiable exceptions of Libertos and a few that have non-FD2/Infil profiles). WB has always been a weird one, what the community seems to call WB (suicidal troops with DTW) doesn't seem to be what makes them WB to CB.
     
  17. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Unit types in general are really just a hangover from N1/2. As said above you could just make skills called TAG, REM, and Powered Armour and the rules would end up tidier for it.

    At the end of the day, we have Briscards and Govads who are the same ARM and MOV, but one is LI, the other is MI, write them off as obsolete concepts
     
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  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Except if recent ITS is any indication, CB seem to be moving towards introducing more classification-specific rules. At this point, it wouldn't surprise me if N4 removed Infiltration, Mech Deployment, and FD2 fully and just went "Skirmishers can do <insert infiltration rules here>" and "Medium infantry can <insert forward deployment and/or mech deployment here>"
     
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  19. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    Which is why I'm saying that it'd be nice to either see them be concepts with something to back them up, by making stuff either exclusive or universal across any given unit type:
    Like making it so only Skirmishers get deployment-related skills or make them free on them when it comes to calculating their costs, or making all HI both hackable and 2W across the board.

    Exactly half of the reason I think it'd be great if those classifications actually indicated something about the unit itself.
    It'd be great if it'd be easily possible to say ''I like Skirmishers'' instead of ''I like units that have access to marker states and deployment skills.''
    The former only really indicates the type now and not much about the unit itself, whilst the latter does indicate stuff about the units themselves but is cumbersome. T:

    Probably would be the only good case of rules nesting as well.
     
  20. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    not sure if what CB with ITS was moving to "extra rules for the troop type" or ways to fix underused units.

    At the moment, I think fixing units with problems by giving extra rules for its troop type is a wrong way to do it. The ones that are working will get the buff and in the end, we will get different problems and we remain in the same position 0
     
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