Okay, here's the reason why I'm confused. We don't do this now with shooting. When a Zhanshi shoots at another Zhanshi, one of them gets a burst of 3 while the other gets a burst of 1. Under the suggestion, a Crane hitting another Crane with the broad side of their swords would be rolling burst of 3 versus a burst of 3 because of the extra burst being tied to the Martial Arts skill and would thus apply in reactive turn as well. The reason why I'm not a fan is that it changes a system where the skill and only the skill of the unit in question dictates advantage to a system where the skill and only the skill of the unit dictates advantage. When shooting, it is the position and access that dictates advantage most of the time. If that hostile Zhanshi is not completely flanked and is able to get around to the position from where to shoot your own Zhanshi, you will be at a disadvantage because you're not the active player and you're not the one spending your limited resources to make moves. I don't know where people got the idea that MA4 is the best when the gain for MA4 units over MA3 is minuscule because it only works better against units that don't really stand a chance in the first place. And CC 32 is a Domaru Berserking. That's not a face to face, so it's literally a unit that's sacrificing their own safety for a much higher chance of wounding the opponent. Buuuut, that particular skill is going to be way way way way stronger with higher burst if it touches CC value at all.
In a FTF 1 B ~= +3 stat. So an Alg HMG will outperform a Wildcat Combi even if they had the same range bands and the same DAM: equally a Shock MMR + Mimmetism will perform similarly to a Red Fury on active. Overall BS stats are mostly within a +/- 3 range of each other: this is why 'burst is king' (actually TO and ODD are better but they're both rare and expensive so don't get thought of as 'the answer'). The active turn advantage of BS Attacks is that you natively have more burst than you're target as well as the ability to choose which target you attack with which trooper from where. The active advantage of CC attacks is only that you can choose which target you attack with which trooper. CC is only reliable when you exploit this. If you don't exploit it, then it's extremely swingy. Shinobi doesn't care whether it's your active or reactive she'll kill you in CC just the same, and she'll probably do it in one order. There is effectively no way a goon will ever beat her in CC: which is fine, because she's bringing a monophilament sword to a gun fight, so you shoot her instead. It's why you don't see a group of goons beating up on a Knight: they shoot it in the face instead. I really like this design: * It feels different to BS Attacks. * It feels like a knife fight between two goons is basically random. * It feels like you need to be extremely good at CC before it's better than shooting something. * It means CC is a useful second function in the game but the game is primarily a shooting game. ----- I also don't think you need to discourage clumping up any more than already is the case. Boarding Shotguns do an extremely good job of that already. If you really wanted to though, proliferate Grenades (not LGLs) more widely. It'd make better use of the +1/+2 PH upgrades some troops get.
Just a push back on the concept that a general application of multiple dice being somehow generally unacceptable. Obviously the concept would need more development.
As one of the first people proposing the additional burst for CC (in this thread), I'd like to say this is a really good point. While I may have trailed off into the seeming swinginess of a single die roll at various points in the conversation, it was mainly the fact that active turn gives very little advantage to the CC troop (as in, they fight as well no matter who's turn it is). I thought this was a little odd considering how completely dominating active turn is for shooting in all but the most obscure circumstances, by comparison. I'm less inclined to argue that CC needs more burst now, but I'd still like to see some innovation in the active/reactive turn dichotomy regarding CC in N4.
Add in a -3 MOD for a CC attack from outside the 180 facing of the target trooper (this could be as a reworking if Surprise Attack or in addition to it). It won't significantly change high end CC, but on the lower end it opens up opportunities where positioning will matter. I don't think it's necessary, but that sort of thing could be added. The biggest argument against it is that it adds another factor to be considered: which I don't really think is needed for CC to achieve what I see as it's goals.
All i'm saying is, I don't care how it's done, is to make CC enjoyable. Right now it's not fun. Why have CC type guys when it's really just not fun? You either have a guy that kills everything inh is path or is taken out with a lucky shot. I want maybe more in the middle but still to the advantage of the CC specialist.
Leave it the same then. ;) "Make CC enjoyable" is an impossibly vague design goal. Lots of people already think CC *is* enjoyable. And there IS a middle area of CC: CC 21-23, MA1 vs CC16-20. Face to Face Roll Die Morlock Gruppe - E/M CCW vs. Avatar - DA CCW Active Player 41.81% Die Morlock Gruppe hits Avatar (Disabled) 8.42% Die Morlock Gruppe inflicts 1 or more wounds on Avatar (2 STR) Failures 29.68% Neither player succeeds Reactive Player 20.09% Avatar inflicts 1 or more wounds on Die Morlock Gruppe (Unconscious) 13.96% Avatar inflicts 2 or more wounds on Die Morlock Gruppe (Dead) Or: Face to Face Roll Die Morlock Gruppe - DA CCW vs. Reverend Moiras - Shock CCW Active Player 67.68% Die Morlock Gruppe inflicts 1 or more wounds on Reverend Moiras (Unconscious) 28.11% Die Morlock Gruppe inflicts 2 or more wounds on Reverend Moiras (Dead) Failures 21.88% Neither player succeeds Reactive Player 10.44% Reverend Moiras inflicts 2 or more wounds on Die Morlock Gruppe (Dead) Both are examples where the odds are good enough to commit orders to the attack, but the chances of failure are high enough that it's not a sure thing and there's a frission of tension as you roll (Moiras are at the very bottom of that though). I think there's value in expanding this space, but also realising that it's not that important so making it cheaper. I'd be more than happy for all CC 14-15 to become CC16 (at the cost of 1pt as compared to CC13) and all CC 16-19 become CC19 (at the cost of 2pts as compared to CC13). 1pt of CC has no practical effect for CC FTF (it's 1-2% different in the FTF calc, so is literally a rounding error). Edit: bloody Locusts are *really* annoying for this. At CC20 there's a not insignificant risk of losing a WB to them. AKA every. single. time. :'(
I can obviously only give my feeling of what needs to be changed. I know it's a shooting game but I'd like it to have some cinematic close combat. I'd also prefer it not have different rules from shooting. I think CC oriented guy should be the equivalent of a high BS guy. One good at range one guy good up close.
Sorry for confusing you, 7 was chosen as a random value over 1, it wasn't a crit. Crits are actually okay and I think they are a very good balancing factor of this game. I was trying to highlight the fact that even though you might have a CC stat over 20, this doesn't mean you will have a 95% chance to cut down a regular knife-wielding average Joe. @toadchild's dice calculator states the chances are about 85%, which looks a bit weird to me since the Fusilier has a 35% raw chance to hit Makaul, so the latter has to roll a 6+ to guarantee a hit, which makes a 70% chance, which to anyone who played at least two hours of XCOM (2012) will scream "DO NOT TAKE THIS SHOT! I REPEAT! PERMISSION TO FIRE NOT GRANTED!". But I guess the actual probability is slightly more complex, hence these 85%. Perhaps it is really okay, but it feels really weird, especially assuming that you need to spend considerably more orders to get into CC safely.
I’d like to see critical hits changed. Instead of an automatic successful hit and wound, change it so that critical hits cannot be cancelled out by better shots, but still give players their save rolls. Fishing for critical roles has gotten too ridiculous and instead of being an awesome moment has become the go to strategy. I’d also like to see tag possession go away. It’s too much of a liability to have your tag stolen and used against you and it’s an incredibly negative play experience. Tags needed a major buff to see play, and got it in ITs 11, but it’s still not enough to convince people to play them. Removing the risk of having it stolen while keeping the risk of being immobilized would be a huge improvement to tags and would encourage players to keep playing with them.
I'd totally be for that a Crit always hits but not necessarily wounds. If anything, it can count as AP/Breaker. Total Immunity doesn't count for crits.
Put another way, this means a 13pt Makaul has roughly the same odds of killing that Fusilier as a 68pt 2 SWC Swiss Guard with HMG using Surprise Shot at over 16". A Kamau MSV2 shooting a dodging Fusilier is also a little less likely to wound, assuming a full Core. So yeah, being equal in lethality to some of the best shooting pieces in the game for a fraction of the cost seems pretty great, with the caveat you need to get there.
If you look at the raw stats, the Makaul has a 92.5% chance of winning the FtF roll. The drop from 92 to 85 is the 7% of the time that the Fusilier makes both BTS saves.
This is exactly why I like CC as it is. With the Swiss Guard you make the investment during list building, and the upside is it's efficient: it can get those odds at the first order of the game. Whereas CC is inherently inefficient to set up which means it's needs to be efficient to purchase and/or in action. This means even small odds of losing FTFs are important. The classic Knife crit vs Shinobi costs you a 40pt + model and usually 2-3 orders setting it up. It's a HUGE blow when it happens: so it needs to happen rarely. Similarly a Morlock fighting a Locust (CC20) stands solid odds of losing (~17%), and while you won't lose an expensive model if the Morlock goes down you will have lost several orders setting it up (probably at least 3: Smoke + Move to contact + CC). Admittedly this is mitigated a bit by the Impetuous order, but that's not really a problem with CC.
After all this CC discussion I don't really know what to think about it, so I've come with another different item for the wishlist: Please make some changes to encourage the use of AD troops, especially those with higher levels! At this moment, IMO it's almost always better to go for a CO/TO infiltrator... and when using AD most people just walk in from the side. How about having AD2+ deploy with a short order, or at least allow them a "special dodge" after landing?
All I really want is an Authorized Bounty Hunter on a Motorcycle with Booty L1. Then I can use that amazing model every game. Even if there's a 0.5 SWC tax associated with it and it doesn't have smoke, I just want the mobility and an excuse to use that mini. :D
This would 100% require stress testing, but you could potentially just have the PH roll for landing using combat jump count as a dodge roll. Alternatively (and this would be a big shot in the arm), you could have deploying just be a short move skill as part of an order, so AD troops of all sorts can arrive + dodge/shoot/hack. On one hand this would make them behave consistently with hidden deployment models, but on the other hand would be very powerful - maybe too powerful. Regardless, I expect the ITS change to landing zones will stick around in N4. And that has helped combat jump troops a lot.
I don't really agree with this. Posessing a TAG is a really inefficient way of dealing with it compared to just immobilising the thing, and your oponnent can just spend a command token to get it back immediately. You're better off just keeping the orders and using them on your own attack pieces. The main barriers to TAG play right now are probably the wide proliferation of jammers and smoke warbands.
Metas differ. My meta doesnt like to isloate, instead opting for killing with large amounts of explosive templates and high burst link teams for crit fishing. Most people possess a tag if they can and use it to kill a couple things then walk it into the open to take aros/ become open for missile launcher aros on the opponents turn when they finally get it back. Its a very unfun experience.
If Possession went and was replaced by more widely useful AHD programs / a cost decrease for AHDs I'd be happy. One of the reasons AHDs need to be so expensive is because they have such swingy powerful programs. Possession, more than any other skill, can completely change the whole game in a single failed roll.
