Did you check the numbers before posting? His values for Crane agent reduced the average chance of wounding a Kamael by about 2.5% but increased the chance of scoring two wounds by about 100%. (Haven't checked against stronger targets, because stronger targets would have vastly different stats due to this change) Generally speaking the only nerf I can see is that they'd never leave a corpse for Extreme Prejudice.
That's actually an issue with the fluff more than it is with Zanshi. Honestly I wouldn't find Zanshi with CC19 for 12pts, or CC16 at 11pts an issue. Both are quite reasonable defensive CC scores at that cost as both increase the risk for mid-level CC options significantly. Until you hit CC20, the present way CC is priced doesn't reflect its utility. Pricing CC as 1pt for 13-16, and 2pts 13-19 isn't out of order. I actually fundamentally like the present CC mechanic: it means the active advantage is in deciding which fights should be procescuted with CC rather than in leveraging additional active advantages like Burst. I make use of a lot of relatively low CC attacks (CC22, MA1). And I love the way that CC fights are brutal and usually have a relatively rapid outcome. Any swingyness comes from choosing poor fights: just as my response to KHDs is "shoot it in the face", that's also my response to anyone decent at CC.
Why the hell is a Crane CCing a Kamael? Infinity is primarily a game about shooting: shooting should be the optimal strategy most of the time. Also because that's vs Electric Pulse it's really not a normal engagement. Fusi is a MUCH better example for this. Edit: finally 2 wounds vs 1 wound on a Kamael is irrelevant when you're in B2B. Either way it's UNC and needs a Coup de Grace.
When the fluff says that Zhanshi training gives "cardinal importance" to close combat, I don't see this as saying anything other than them being thoroughly trained in it. How someone whose training has been given cardinal importance isn't going to qualify as "decent" would be weird, but for reference I'm not of the posh British inclination who would call a Monk's martial ability "acceptable", I'd call it "stellar" at the very least. Arguably, if Zhanshi training consists of literally no practical training at all, and just a two week theory course and gun maintenance briefing before being sent to the front, then that wouldn't qualify as decent regardless of how much of that combat theory focused on close combat, but somehow I don't think Zhanshi training is *that* terrible.
Because it's a comparison between the Crane's CC ability prior to the suggestion and their CC ability after the suggestion? Why would I run the calc using a Crane's shooting ability when it's the damned CC ability that was discussed? Also, Kamael doesn't have Electric Pulse and was using their pistol at +3 range.
Zhanshi have decent CC training in the same way that Aquila Guards attend the best tactical schools in PanO. It's a fluff thing not borne out by the rules, CC14 is bad.
CC values under 18 is purely visual aesthetics. CC is a corner case in and of itself that doesn't crop up often during the course of a game, and when it does the low CC values hardly makes a difference over the course of a few hundred games. Pricing CC at all for values this low is only a tool to make a unit artificially more expensive. You get Mimetism for 2 points or less! That's a 3 point shift for most of the game's BS Attacks! There's no way a CC value of 18 compares to that.
CC 14 is terrible, we agree, but it's supposed to be borne of a pretty decent chunk of their (spitballing) one year preparatory training, which is where the "supposedly decent" comes from. In the same way as a Krav Maga pupil of several months can be expected to handle a drunk whos got no training
Oh, I agree. If someone told me tomorrow that "the new pricing for CC is 13-18 = 1pt and it was 1pt / increase after that", I'd shrug and enjoy the price discount on almost every Nomad MI (who almost universally suffer from CC cost bloat). My suggestion was based on the fact that CB knows that CC can be a bloat skill and uses it for that reason. CC13-16 = 1pt and CC13-19 = 2pt retains some of this bloatiness while actually making it meaningful. I'd need to see / run the maths I recall that one started getting 'defensive' effects from CC at around 16. What I mean from this is that vs mid-tier CC troops (<CC23, MA1 IE. Morlocks), the chance for a lucky knifing starts becoming meaningful. But yes, I'd be happy with a system that was basically: Incompetent = CC7 (REMs mostly) - this is here as a deliberate 'discount' option al la Holowmen Untrained = CC10 (Civvies) - a lesser discount option, the drunk Basic training = CC13 (most line inf) - baseline, the guy who's done a couple of months of Krav Maga and who will handle the drunk, but should because there's a fair chance he'll get hurt Trained = CC18 (Zanshi, most MI) - the guy who does Krav Maga for years and can reliably handle a drunk with an expectation they won't be hurt Above that is degrees of expertise. But I can also see that as: CC16 - Trained: the guy who does Krav Maga for years and can reliably handle a drunk with an expectation they won't be hurt CC19 - Well trained: the guy who does Krav Maga for years and can reliably handle a fighter with basic training with an expectation they won't be injured
Yes, I checked the numbers before posting, across a few different test cases. They typically translated to a few percentage points lower chance of success, and a few percentage points higher chance of enemy success, across the board. If you also lower the CC of various target dummy units, you come back around to basically the same likelihood of success across the board as if there'd been absolutely no change at all in a vacuum, but still significantly filing the top end off melee kill potential because stats above 20 become even more powerful when you use gang up bonuses to obtain a burst advantage on top of a score advantage. (Edit: for example comparing a crane rank getting a burst bonus from a couple of link members in CC under the current and proposed systems, his chance of success is massively diminished under the proposed system.)
Just doing some very quick simulations, at a glance they look like they stay about as relevant as they are now (which is to say they vary in value depending on the situation but are always less valuable than equivalent positive MODs to the attacker - not that those would be present under the proposed change).
I'm pretty sure I've already put this somewhere here, but on the topic of melee changes, making Assault a common skill would be a big step forward for shooty soldiers and bad CC troops since it represents the only way of exceeding a trooper's first MOV value while still gaining a FTF roll. This would make CC the fastest way up the board and would make it more common and useable for normal troops, especially in turn 3 when orders are low and you need to get Specialists into the right places.
Particularly if you keep the -3 to hit. There's a potential issue with TO/ODD CC troopers becoming too efficient with it though. Maybe increasing it to -6 to hit could work for that: it'd reduce the efficiency of Surprise Attack Assault. Kum and 8-4 Move Morlocks would be stupid scary as well. Basically, I like the idea but the second / third order effects would need to be looked into in detail.
Making Assault a Common skill or at least a more common skill could work to counterbalance the nerf removing ARO baiting might have on reaching CC, especially if you removed the LOF requirement too. Also, it could make an improved CC under 20 feel like less of a tax, since it could work as more of a deterrent to more common assaulting for the movement, or an incentive to assault mainly for the movement. I'd be for that.
Considering how extremely powerful Gang-up is (for CC20+ units only); I find this to be a desirable goal for N4 Edit: There's a few more reasons. Chief among them is that I'd like to see fewer reasons for units to clump up in a big pile of turds like in the so many other larger-scale games. While it is thematic to beat a Ninja or a Knight by throwing piles of goons on them 'til they drown, what happens in Infinity is that you'll get someone competent in a Fireteam be a Wildcard to maximize their competence dog-piling the goons. I.e. it's more common for the goon to be dog-piled by Knights than for the heroic Knight to be dog-piled by goons.
The current "wisdom" is that burst is king in terms of shooting. I don't see much talk about low burst value but really high BS scores being more desired. In fact, martial arts lvl 4 is frequently lauded as "the best" due to additional burst that it offers. These forums in general embrace CC 32 as good not because one wins due to that value but because of getting a crit. Giving CC more dice as a general effect and paralleling shooting doesn't seem horrible.
Hey! Marksmanship LX is a really cool ability! Teucer Feuerbaching someone on 23s is no joke. Also, burst is king in shooting because the values are lower (13-15s-ish to make an average), so you need more chances to succeed on lower dice. CC right now produces one of the more skewed dice rolls this game has, such that you can with astounding consistency say to your opponent: "you only win this if you Crit". But the same can be true if you're ARO'ing shooting against a B5 HMG or something of sorts. In fact, you have more chances in Shooting to shoot back against something of B4+ than you have to punch someone back in CC. The best martial arts lvl is normally 3, because it helps you to crit more and win more and them crit less and win less. Lvl 4 is seldom better than 3. The CC32 you allude is only achievable with Berserk and that has other implications such as making your roll an absolute 100% at (perhaps) a cost of a wound (because you make the F2F into a Normal roll). Not only that but you get a huge chance to apply some sort of special effect (E/M, Viral, T2, whatever it is that exists in Berserkers), and that's what the "32" is there for. CC is pretty much fine and it's a very exciting mechanic when it's applied properly, some units will use it more than others and some will never draw their Knife, but that doesn't mean CC is bad as it is.
