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The definite N4 Comments, Suggestions, Ideas, wishlist's and Bugs that need fixing thread

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    The more oppressive Jammers get, the higher the value of Veteran L1. This is the buff Bolts and Morat players have been asking for.

    :upside_down_face:
     
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  2. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Yeah, but binary immunities and "gear checks" aren't good for the health of the game.
     
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  3. SpectralOwl

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    I've mentioned this in other Jammer-oriented threads, but since they're a powerful non-LoS weapon like a Hacking Device without any of the selective targetting they should probably just have an SWC cost. Lowest-effort change, but attaches a real cost to the things to bring them more in line with other powerful area-denial tools like the AHD.
     
  4. Xeurian

    Xeurian Well-Known Member

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    I've always thought the Ghazi should have at least a .5 swc.
     
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  5. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    That's an interesting idea. It would sort of soft-enforce an asymmetric play-style if you wanted to go all in on them. I think I like it.
     
  6. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    I cannot talk for varuna or haqq, but in TJC, if I want to stop warbands, non-hacker specialists inside smoke and a few other tactics, jammers are one of the few tools I have, so I have not much options there. Autoinclude? I think not, but even in the case I didn't want to field them, I have take them into account. Sometimes I field 1 or none. Last game I tryed with 2 (after all this discussion)...a waste of points, no enemy came near them and isolating an enemy inside armory doesn't stop him from counting for mission, so I ended using only the combi. In the previous game I fielded none with jammer, only redfury and KHD, and they worked as intended, didn't miss the jammer ones. So no autoinclude, but they are important.

    In vainilla instead I have not that problem, so there they are far from autoinclude (I have my own warbands, MSV2, minelayers, lots of koalas and so). I have more options so I rarely field them in vainilla (I think I only did once, in a joke-like list). If they were so good, I suppose I would go fielding 2 or 3 of them all the times, but heckers have other interesting options too.

    you might need so much orders...or you might need only one. On average you usually will need between 2 and 4 for that one, or much other troopers. There are people that use that as their primary tactic (It never worked for me outside emily's core, and I also think that one is order consuming, so a worse GL would be even more order consuming). I do not deny is order consuming (I am repeating myself too much, LoL), just that, the same way are other tools that are also order consuming (even more than this) and are seen as "do not touch them! they are good", this is a low range, tool that need positioning for it to work and survive, and there are treats to them in all factions. Spect fire is only one of them
     
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  7. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    0.5 SWC wouldn't be terrible for Jammers in general. I'd like it to come with a lowering in SWC of some other things that don't seem to deserve it (eg 2 SWC Wildcat HRL, 1 SWC Meteor Zond, 0.5 swc on lots of haris profiles, I'm sure there are plenty of others).

    It'd sure suck for a sectorial like Tunguska, with lots of 2 swc heavy weapons and hackers out the wazoo to boot tho.
     
    #1427 Hachiman Taro, Nov 26, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2019
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  8. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    That could work, but I would like to see more SWC extra taxes out there too, not only in the same few factions all the time. while at the same time, those factions with the extra SWC are also limited in other tools
     
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  9. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    There is a good argument to be made for adding SWC costs to things like Jammers, KHDs, ... and to get rid of a good chunk of SWC discounts.

    While listbuilding will get a bit more cramped, it'll ensure hybrid Profiles and low SWC gunners will have a place in the game.
    I tend to avoid anything that isn't a high performance B4+ SWC gun like the plague, unless it is on very high performing tools like Dart. Marksman, Breaker and Multi Rifles are a significant downgrade compared to a Spitfire or Red Fury relative to the price difference of 2-4 points .

    Main Problem here is that the baseline Combi is one of the least costefficient weapons in the game and both +1 Burst and >16" positive Rangebands are what ends up winning you a lot of FTF rolls in your active turn. A 24" or 32" radius threat bubble is just that much larger compared to a 16" one.
    8 inch radius area enclosed by positive Rangebands = 201 inch²
    16inch radius area enclosed by positive Rangebands = 804 inch²
    24inch radius area enclosed by positive Rangebands = (1810-201=) 1609 inch²
    32inch radius area enclosed by positive Rangebands = (3217-804=) 2413 inch²

    Before factoring in other weapon's relative rangebands, LOF denial through Cover etc a Spitfire has double the effective range coverage than a Combi and a HMG can cover three times as much. This is the baseline on why a HMG is so much better to have than an Assault Pistol beyond the extra 2 DAM, there's just by leaps and bounds more opportunity to use it effectively.

    Some of the Rifle subtypes don't address the problem effectively and that's fine, to keep them as "suboptimal" choices for Toolbox Hybrids or Combat Specialists, they add versatility to Links, but are often outclassed by simply costing an arm and a leg over a LSG or SMG filler Profile with utility option for range (Blitzen/Panzerfaust/Flashpulse/LRL...). Viral and Plasma Rifles compensate for the reduced threat area by hitting with what essentially amounts to more than twice as hard than a Combi, they're both in a pretty good place.

    Theres a point to be made that the Marksmanrifle is a wasted opportunity. Of all the things that can be adjusted to make a gun good, Rangebands are another one thing that could and should see more use. Marksmanrifles could just be Sniper Rifles "light", meeting in between Combi and Sniper, B3 and positive Rangebands from 8-32 (maybe even DAM14). That would make them compete with both HMGs and Spitfires. Same thing for the underused MK12 and Ojotnik. There's a whole class of weapons to play around with and make the game more interesting.

    Pistol calls weapons and SMGs could also use a bit of an overhaul. SMGs need to lose pseudo light Multi to justify their point costs. Also opens up the addition of actual AP, Shock, Breaker and Multi SMGs.

    A different approach would be to introduce more "shitty" weapons with good Skills. K1 Sniper Rifles with FAT2 or Breaker Marksman Rifles with Marksmanship L1 (for 1ARM+1BTS roll per hit) on top of some weapon tuning.

    Wouldn't even add more complexitiy to the rules. Essentially just streamlines things and opens up to use the existing tools in a more creative manner to diversify things.
    There are a lot of sane choices to use existing tools to make something underwhelming desirable to use. I'm really not much of a Kriza Borac, Tarik or Sheshkin fan and would like to see the game in a different direction, where a Mk12 Gecko is a sensible choice to run Khawarij aren't a big questionmark and Corax wasn't dead on arrival.
     
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  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Very good post, Teslarod!

    I often find myself agonizing over the fact that I can't reasonably get Multi Sniper (i.e. a longer range gun) for my CGs, Zhanshis, Kappas, etc, simply because their low performance means the SWC is usually "wasted" on them.
    A no-SWC weapon with increased range would be very nice. Ditto Mk12 on HI (because apparently too heavy for light infantry I think is the fluff)
     
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  11. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    And I've had plenty of people decide Infinity wasn't for them after they've experienced a camo spam list that had no interest in interacting with them, or a Tohaa list using Eclipse Smoke + Symbiomates to ensure that there's nothing that their opponent can do to disrupt their gameplan.
     
  12. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    I like this. While I think weapons in general for N3 were a massive improvement over N2 and largely introduced a lot of great nuance. A few tweaks around rangebands and SWC could definitely be a another good improvement.
     
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  13. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    if you can create two 17" bubbles that your opponent heavily avoids I'd argue they made their points back in their role of area denial. Hecklers aren't Ghazi, where they get their value from the sticking the jammer, Hecklers get more mileage out of the threat of being jammed than applying the state itself (at least in TJC, in vanilla it turns into more of a gotcha piece), as it will potentially shepherd models into areas where you want to be fighting, like towards that TO boarding shotgun that's waiting in HD. the biggest strength of that profile is the 29" hacking threat it can project on the active turn.

    However in missions like The Armoury where it's just throw points into a bucket a second may not be a good choice.


    Regarding MK12s and Marksman rifles, the marksman rifle is fine in it's current iteration being B3, dam13 and spitfire range bands as it fits what it is, I would like to see it get rolled out to more profiles (like Intruders getting an AP marksman rifle). The Mk12 on the other hand I would love to see it's range increased to the 32" making it to HMGs what the marksman is to spitfires, and it also means that the MK12 and Marksman aren't taking up the same space in design as a medium burst, 24", SWCless gun.
     
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  14. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    with the "waste of points" I only meant in that particular game, and only for jammers (hecklers did the work with their combis). I could not move them to the objective near enough to be of any true "area denial" use (the enemy had first turn and covered my advance, and he could safelly declare discover and I could not get more near to the objective room due to cover issues)
     
  15. Del S

    Del S Nomadball

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    Code One will hopefully be a more shooty stabby game, but maybe victory points in N4 could allow for "tactical" victories? IE, most army points killed.

    Maybe there's a better approach but essentially I'm thinking that you play a slightly modified Annihilation concurrent with the other scenario, with exceptions on other shooty kill scenarios like, well, Annihilation itself and the like.
     
  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    In the end, Jammers need to disappear or change drastically, even with a hypothetical .5 SWC cost. They provide a more severe impact on the viability of terrain, including multi-level pieces and pieces with closed doors, than anything else in the game. Being able to park a Jammer inside of a closed building or multi-level building shouldn't be as powerful as it is; with hacking, it's not a similar issue because KHD's exist and even regular hacking devices can take out an enemy AHD creeping around in a building. I don't want creative use of terrain to be hampered by this one game element that people cling to for stupid reasons.
     
  17. Del S

    Del S Nomadball

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    A few possible adjustments to Jammers or how they could work spring to mind that I think could reduce their power while leaving them viable area denial weapons:
    -Jammers have an "automatic" roll like Electric Pulse (maybe 10?)
    --No LOF is treated as -3 to that automatic roll.
    -SWC cost (Duh)
    -Inflict a special isolated that can be reset without engineer
    --This lower tier isolated could maybe also allow fireteams to still share their orders with each other?
    -Make Jammers hackable with a new program
    -Increased points costs
     
  18. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I like "Delete Jammers, replace with E/Marats."

    Especially since every model with a sculpted "Jammer" actually has an E/Marat.
     
  19. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    why add another program? when by making them hackable (making them comms equipment) you can just slap them with blackout.
     
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  20. emperorsaistone

    emperorsaistone Well-Known Member

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    Just make them Hackable for Sword and Claw.
    Ghazi then still are awesome for their points and Hecklers as well as Zulus can be recosted if it is really necessary.
     
    Del S likes this.