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The definite N4 Comments, Suggestions, Ideas, wishlist's and Bugs that need fixing thread

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. Serious Bob

    Serious Bob New Member

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    Thx. My bad.

    It took me only 15 min browsing through 3 different wiki pages plus FAQ to figure out why is that so.
    Infinity rules are so simple. :)
     
  2. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    The biggest quality of life change for N4 in terms of teaching the rules is changing the term "Short Movement Skill" to "Minor Skill"

    I have spoken.
     
  3. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    Because isolated prevents orders being spent on a model and g:sync doesn't have orders spent on it.

    Infinity is largely intuitive. Confirming that I agree is a hassle because they way things are structured.

    That's why I hope the biggest changes in N4 is structuring of the rules and cleaning up the ones which aren't as intuitive.

    Hopefully the core remains mostly untouched.

    Maybe some tweaking of points so zhanshi can finally be 10 points
     
  4. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Isolated should probably just be changed to "makes them irregular" in N4.
     
  5. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    Doesn't that mean they'd have no effect at all in reactive turn?
     
  6. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    This.

    So, you want me to fuck off and never play this game again? Noted.

    I almost lost the people I was teaching Infinity to back in 2006-7, because the only scenarios around were kill them all. That got really boring really, really fast.



    Amen!!!

    If the model isn't physically moving, it's not a movement skill!!!
     
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  7. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    I reckon isolated and stunned should be different levels of the same state IMHO.
    So isolated would be irregular + effects of stunned that turn.
    This would deflate the devastating effect of isolated, while allowing isolate causing weapons to still affect isolated troops.
     
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  8. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Disclaimer: I have not thought about this any more than the 30 seconds it's taking to type this out...

    What if there were a "Hard Reset" skill that is only useable in the active turn that allowed you to reset out of isolated (or perhaps IMM-2...)?
     
  9. Mob of Blondes

    Mob of Blondes Well-Known Member

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    Maybe even rename both short ones. Entire, Combinable (current Short Movement, could be Stackable, Repeatble... something in that line) and Minor (current Short)? Combinable and Minor could be described as Half (for when the difference does not matter).

    So every spent Order allows:
    One Entire Order Skill
    or
    Up to two Half Order Skills, but never both Minor.
     
  10. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Ehh, I'd prefer something more distinct and also quick to say. Having "Half" and "Half Minor" leaves room for confusion.

    Short, Minor, and Entire are nice short words, and easy to summarise your options as:

    2 Minors
    1 Minor + 1 Short
    1 Entire
     
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  11. Mob of Blondes

    Mob of Blondes Well-Known Member

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    Saying Half and Half Minor would be no more confusing than Dog and Shepherd Dog. "Wait? Was it 2 Minors or 2 Shorts?" is the confusion I want to avoid (in my terms "2 Combinables or 2 Minors", in that order, and clearly the reply is always "2 Combinables"). Other skills are Deployment or Automatic, pretty clear what they are about. Some letters more are fine if that means it's always implicit how/when skills can be used.

    The idea I propose is that you don't have to remember if Short or Minor (something about "sizes") is the one that can combine. Combinable, Stackable, Pairable, Aggregable... plenty of words to assign to ones that "can go along something else".

    If it is going to change, do it so it does not need a fix in N5.
     
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  12. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    I'd suggest move, standard and full actions but I think those have been trademarked :P
     
  13. Mob of Blondes

    Mob of Blondes Well-Known Member

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    The issue is that Discover or Activate currently are Short Movement Skills. The results is that you can do Move and Activate, but also Discover and Activate if you want, or even Discover twice (different targets), or Discover followed by BS Attack.
     
  14. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    It was just a D&D joke :)
     
  15. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    @Hecaton, is hard to quote from quote from quote all the time so I will not do it, sorry. But I want to point some things there:

    you ignore just part of the explanation, not showing flaws, just ignoring what you want, or even read things that weren't writed there. You do it all the time, and is tiring trying to expain again and again and we end in circles because of that.

    I talk about experiences, which seems that are highly different than yours (or that you haven't tryed all is out there). I have tryed all I can to make sure that X or Y is usable in my playstyle, or to learn to play it . And experience in both hunting jammers and mine being hunted down. Taking them out is order consuming, I never said that it wasn't. Is the same as with some ARO pieces out there: you need the correct tools. If there is a hac-tao missile launcher covering an objective, you need a dude with MSV2, a repeater and an AHD, smoke, a suicide dude with flametrower or any other of the tools avaiable out there, every faction have them. Hacking is more order consuming and less effective in that situation that sending the devil dog against a jammer, but I will not see you use those arguments, more on the contrary. But going back to jammers, devil dog and so... No, they don't need to be autoinclude, but if a faction has not so much options and want to make sure that enemy tool doen't affect so much, then they should think abut its inclusion, the same way other factions have to think to include or not some other tools for some other kind of treats (if TJC doen't have MSV2 and don't want to spend so much orders in hacking, they might have to think about including perseus for smoking the objective, or raoul + evo to hunt down in melee the hactao, all of it after discovering it, which is way harder than a heckler,

    against the ghazi and spec fire, I told: if you want to go the same turn, you will need to do 2 wounds, yes. But you can go objective the next turn after doing 1 wound and see how it dies while you clean another side, or you simple reposition preparing for next turn

    I partly agree on that taking out jammers would not make those sectorials directly worse than others... Varuna is in really good possition so they will not suffer from lossing it, but the other two I'm not so sure about that. Actually I find very hard to play with TJC against MAF, that is just a complete different topic.
     
    #1415 Armihaul, Nov 25, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019
  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Or better yet, just don't have those two as Movement skills at all. There's very little benefit left to Discover being a Movement Skill as of the latest FAQ that isn't also covered by the Special Manoeuvre and Activate is used so rarely and order resolution sequence means it might as well be a normal Short Skill.

    While I can't speak for Hecaton, I share some of his opinions, so kindly consider that we are above all else talking about interaction and price here;
    1. A Hac Tao ML costs nearly 65 points and 2 SWC, is Hackable, and has a one-use Hidden Deployment that can't shoot through walls nor smoke. A Hac Tao, or anything near their cost, should be significantly harder to deal with than a 23-point 0-swc model. This is why profiles have points cost.
    2. Hacking has more counter-plays and costs significantly more. Also, this example is more or less you saying "have a problem with an enemy, bring Jammers" because a Jammer works very close to how an Assault Hacking Device works against a Heavy.
    3. Hacking (Carbonite) a Hac Tao who has Fairy Dust has higher success rate than Speculative Firing against a Mutta using a full 5-man Grunt team at optimal range, and for many factions both safer and less costly in terms of orders and points.

    Let's not be confused here, that there are counter-plays isn't disputed, rather instead; how effective they are and whether the gameplay actually benefits from requiring this from the opponent is. If you deal with a Jammer you often lose enough orders that the Jammer was well worth it, if you don't deal with the Jammer you often lose enough play area or playable models that the Jammer was well worth it - this is the key complaint.
    At no point is "you can hurt the Zulu Cobra by doing X" an actual meaningful argument unless you also analyse how much you need to invest into hurting the Zulu Cobra in terms of risk, reward, and detraction from the mission - the latter being excessively dangerous for low order-count armies.

    So with all that in mind, let's sum things up as such; sure, but the Yu Jing player is investing a whole lot more and risking more with the Hac Tao and the counter-play is often equally or less costly.
     
  17. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you, but let me put some points.

    My example of the hac tao and hacking was about the "order consuming" and the devil dog. Of course the hactao is a big dude, and you should use specialized weaponship or another big dude, but hacking is supposed to work specially well against that kind of objectives, jet it is highly order consuming.I am pretty sure anybody will need more orders for hacking the hac tao because:

    usually you will not know where he is until is too late, the camoed hecklers you have high chances to know where they are just after deployment, so you can start your first turn and plan your moves with that into account, but that cannot be done against a TO, as much you can guess a bit, if the table has obvious places for that.

    once you know where he is, you need to reveal him. The devild dog does it with the doggy. But against the hac tao, you have it revealed after he blasted something, which is not a good interchange. Or do discover with something lucky enough, or that is a threat high enough so he reveals himself. But we are talking of the need of doing it with hacking, so we can assume in this theretical example that we used the tread, but lost in the exchange.

    And after that, you need to be near him, so after loosing something hard enough to kill the tao, you need to send the AHD near him. You could not know where he was (or even if he was in the table), so you need to move near him the infiltrator (if you have it) with the AHD or a repeater, thats some extra orders.

    Of course, the hactao might deserve all of that. I do not deny that. Just that justifying that a tool is order consuming is a no, while at the same time justifying that other tools more order consuming are ok, is a bit of absurd.
     
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  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Armihaul, consider that the Hac Tao usually has a single shot at at most 17 BS normal roll. While this will kill most things, it is excessively uncommon to be in a position where you don't have a second short skill to return fire or no Cover. Assuming the Hac Tao kills whatever it was that they managed to ARO is by far no given, and we know there is nothing in Ariadna this costly, so to make the investment back in a single shot the Hac Tao has to pick off either the LT this way or several enemy models - something that honestly is all the fault of the Ariadna player for clumping up and at no point decided by the Yu Jing (or Pan-O with Swiss) player.

    The Hac Tao would have to make a huge nuisance for itself throughout the game to hope to get ROI and given that we're talking about the ML profile their active turn is on the weak side.

    Above all else, though, the Swiss (had the dice roller stuck on Pan-O) needs to stick their neck out to do what you describe which means they'll have a 37% chance of murdering the Grunt HMG that's gonna return fire and a 37% risk of taking a wound.

    Meanwhile a Jammer will be facing off against Reset because it shoots through walls and their opponents do not and Reset can't hurt you.

    Now, we're talking about vastly different threat areas and vastly different investments, so it's not quite a comparison to make. There's a lot of iffs and butts about the Hac Tao/Swiss/Anathematic/... but above all else, the one thing that's clear is that there is a consequence for them to try these ARO if they fail. For a Jammer there is not.

    (Also, I kind of find the super-expensive HI to be fairly low performance because of how weak the rest of the list gets, but others swear by them.)
     
  19. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    So Hecklers are autoincludes for you? If Jammers are so good that they're in all of your lists and the ability to ignore them tanks your ability to play the game... something's up.

    Again, though, as other have said - there are counters for units with Jammers. The question is if the opportunity cost for using them is so high that it makes it not worth it. If I spend eight orders killing a five point model with spec fire... I've lost even if I take that model out, which is something that you seem to dance around. A player shouldn't be entitled to totally screwing their opponent's order efficiency just because they took some jammers in their list.
     
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  20. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    Jammers are ridiculous. They should just give the user Oblivion without the perks and vulnerabilities of having a hacking device, and Isolation should be re-settable. Then they would maybe be points appropriate.
     
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