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The definite N4 Comments, Suggestions, Ideas, wishlist's and Bugs that need fixing thread

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

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    Yes, I think you've misunderstood.

    Currently, the trooper can choose not to use Stealth, force a Change Facing ARO, then move into combat without being shot. The idea is to find a way to do that, but have it make sense when combined with Stealth. For example only being able to force a Change Facing ARO if you use Stealth.
     
  2. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    It doesn't really, it was just a less clunky option than the suggestion to get around model A not using stealth to force a change face of model B then run into CC, leaving model A with real way to defend itself. however I may have misread the intent behind Nehemiah's post.
     
  3. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    but is really needed to do that? if someone is guarding a corner, he deserves to deffend himself. Giving extra benefits to someone just because has an hability partially related to what he wants to do sems to me no-go.

    For a fluf reason, this:
     
  4. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Let's take USARF - no veterans, now minelayer, no MSV2, and spec fire, sure, but, pointedly, you can't spec fire at a camo marker and Ghazis have Dogged, so spec fire is a very poor solution for that problem, which you'd understand if you had a grasp on the game. I'd appreciate it if you put more thought into your answers than that.


    If the only interaction you're trying to have is with objectives and you're trying to ignore what your opponent does, it's noninteractive.
     
  5. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    So USARF doesn't field infiltrating HFT just to burn whatever you want? Jammers are your main menace? Burn them on first turn.

    EVERY army has a solution to EVERY problem. It is just not the same for every army. Thanks God.
     
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  6. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    That's definitely a "sometimes" choice. Not viable in every mission lineup/format. Sometimes you need all that SWC as opposed to the 2 or so you're gonna have to spend putting Grunts upfield like that.
     
  7. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    You are right (indirectly though) in one thing : not all armies have the same quality tools (or cuantity acces) as others. The problem is that all your arguments are for making easier for those armies that have access to most easy tools, toning down the "not so easy ones" other have just because seems you don't want to look for alternatives (that's all I can take from most of your coments). Maybe is you who should check your grasp of the game and open your way of thinking. I am not a "proplayer", just your average middle tournament dude, I try to play all kind of options, not only the "top tier ones" (as I've seen doing some top players), and play in diferent kind of tables (some more dense that others, some with long shot lines, some with not so much long and so), and I've played (talked, and lost completelly, of course) against some ITS top players (the good thing living near them), I might have a diferent grasp of the game thank you, but to me, you seem the one with a high biased perception of the game, because seems you have a high biased meta, (but like your ad-hominem, this is another fallacy, a false authority one)

    let's see (check army in 5 minutes because I don't know much about USARF)... they don't have minelayers, yes, they have better infiltrators than advance deployment 1, stealth to pass through those jammers (martial arts, camo and so, so they can get a shotting position agatinst that jammer outside its range), they have a nice sincro antipode that (thanks to the rules) is inmune to isolation (the rule only has effect on the controller) and has sensor, wich would make them go into cc with the hecklers in 2-3 orders (if they were not revealed before, because they cannot hide again, I suppose I do not need to explain you how to use smoke and sensor to go into melee with the heckler), all apart from the spec fire (and dogged in their turn would mean that when it is the ghazi turn, they are dead, or again sensor if you need it against camoed jammer). I only state that everyone has tools, not to state all of them.
     
    #1387 Armihaul, Nov 22, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
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  8. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    You're gonna need to come at me again with some better English. What does "viased" mean?"

    I'll just stop you right there. If you don't know what you're talking about, butt out.
     
  9. Dr.Lycosid

    Dr.Lycosid Member

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    I am pretty sure Armihaul meant 'biased'. I don't think it is that hard to get his points and despite Armihaul's statement that he does not know much about USARF and he isn't a 'proplayer', he came up with some valid points that are worth considering. No need to be ignorant here. To me this seems to be a potentially fruitful discussion
     
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  10. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    Yes, sorry my english is not top notch enough for some standards and thanks for the clarification. (I fixed it to clarify)

    I didn't bring Usarf in the topic in the first place, but made an effor to see if you were in the right... but instead I found other options, so I cannot aggree with your argument and explained why.
     
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  11. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Every playgroup has quirks, sure, but it's not like sectorials are designed holistically with the idea that they need to have tools vs. Jammers or whatever. Like I mentioned, USARF is severely lacking in tools to deal with them.

    You need to stop mentioning Spec Fire as a tool to deal with Jammers; it doesn't work. Hecklers and Zulu Cobras start camo'd, and spec firing Dogged Ghazi is a waste of time. The fact that you keep bringing it up tells me that you have a very feeble grasp of how the game is actually played.

    And you're saying I'm "biased" and you're not, when you aren't grokking the idea that you can't Spec Fire camo tokens?


    You did not make an effort. You looked at Army for five minutes. That's not enough time to tell how an army plays or how it deals with certain problems. I, too, can look at Army for five minutes. I play the faction regularly. It's insulting and disrespectful to reply to that comment with such a pithy response.
     
  12. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    Again, you pick only the part you are interested in and ignore what the other tryes to say. Yes, you cannot spec fire camos...thats why there are other tools for discover them... as I mentioned the dog with sensor and inmune to isolation (or more that isolation doesn't apply to it). I also bring spec fire it because hecklers cannot recamo, once discovered they remain as a valid objective. Yes, with zulu there are more problem because they can recamo, but if you go for them in your turn, there are ways. And lasty, dogged is not inmortal (I know you know that, so please, stop talking as if it were), you apply the wound, cover the objective, and just wait for next turn: they die. Is not optimal, but is a way to.. but there are other ways, like doing an extra wound or using other options avaibale, the turns are also a resource you have to manage

    I only needed 5 minutes to see that you were ignoring options from the army just to prove a false point. The effor was not looking at the army, the effor was trying to understand your point and see where I could be wrong, but instead I saw that you were ignoring parts of all. I neither said that I knew how an army works, and the same way, I do not deny that they can have some problems. I just state that you keep ignoring avaiable tools/options just because they are not to your liking or as powerful as other have, while at the same time, taking out the things you want to nerf would put those factions (that at the moment are not top tier) in a worse position than are now.
     
    #1392 Armihaul, Nov 22, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    No, I'm pointing out flaws in your reasoning.

    Just discovering it doesn't kill it. Our one decent spec fire platform (Grunt) is predicated on running a Grunt fireteam - what if one's running something different? Should a Devil Dog and a Grunt fireteam with a LGL be autoincludes to handle this one ability that can disrupt your troops with no chance of retaliation? Or is that ability that breaks the rest of the game's rules that's the problem?

    They're only going to reveal when the time is right; you're arguing that they must be given a chance to brick one of your units before you can attack them, which is bullshit.

    What ways? And have you tried them on the table or are you just navel-gazing?

    The point is even if you succeed at a spec fire against a Ghazi you still can't run in on the objective they're covering because they'll still jam you. You need to succeed at a spec fire twice - and considering how unreliable that is, if you have to spend that much effort to kill a five point model, you're going to lose.

    I never denied the options you mentioned were there; my point is that they're not cost-effective at dealing with these troops. Just having Jammers in your list shouldn't entitle you to making your opponent spend a huge amount of orders and effort to interact with an objective without their guy being isolated.

    Jammer should be removed, and then, if the factions involved have problems winning, they should be looked at again. To be frank, the removal of Jammers won't make TJC, Hassassins, or especially Varuna worse than Morats or Druze - so your complaints about power levels are baseless.

    There's a difference between an available option in the army list and it being worthwhile to use on the table - in theory you can use Sniffers and Guided ammo to deal with people like this too, but it's never going to be order-efficient to do so, so just because it's in the list means nothing.

    When you have a camo'd jammer unit inside or on top of a building within ZoC of an objective, and you can't get to it without being exposed to multiple Jammer hits, that's a problem. That effect shouldn't be in the game.
     
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  14. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    I think you've made the effort and by now you should know that poster does not discuss in good faith. It's best left alone rather than continue spiralling
     
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  15. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    "5 minutes of looking at Army" isn't enough effort to apprehend the problem, really.
     
  16. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    Jesus, playing USARF sounds nightmarish. I've got a solid amount of time with I think thirteen factions at this point and all of them have valid counterplay to and meaningful interaction with jammer-equipped enemies.
     
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  17. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    There's a strange trick to get every grunt to infiltrate successfully every time, so no need to dig too deep into your SWC...

    playing versus me
     
    #1397 the huanglong, Nov 23, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2019
  18. KedzioR_vo

    KedzioR_vo Well-Known Member
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    Please reconsider changing something in the rules of Manned / Ghost: Remote Presence TAGs. The downside of having a Manned TAG are brutal.
    (Played again with Maghariba today, I like her, she's a beauty, but I lost her again because of failed WiP engineer 14rolls. With 4 Command Tokens lying close. It hurts. The Manned TAGs should be cheaper, or just should get the same Re-roll llke the G: Remote Presence ones...).


    PozdRawiam / Greetings
     
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  19. Serious Bob

    Serious Bob New Member

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    Little shoutout on thing wich everyone in this conversation has ignored:

    1) Devil Dog has no Sensor, but has TI.
    2) Antipode has no Totall Immunity, and has Sensor.
    3) Total Immunity doesn't applies when affected by Comms Attacks(including Jammer)
     
  20. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Isolated state has no effect on G: Sync troopers
     
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