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The definite N4 Comments, Suggestions, Ideas, wishlist's and Bugs that need fixing thread

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    +1

    These wishlist and problems threads are some nuggets of insight mixed amongst thousands of posts about overly specific issues with individual mechanics or aspects of mechanics. To help organize the ideas a bit, I think that following this advice would make the threads a far more valuable resource should CB ever actually consult them regarding problems within the game.

    I'm going back to add bolded "focus statements" to my earlier posts.
     
    ZlaKhon and Yog.0 like this.
  2. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    1. That TAG is trash.

    2. Most KHD platforms have some kind of deployment mechanic either FD, Infiltration or AD allowing them to be in the general area that the TAG wants to operate in, this is often further augmented through the use repeaters, meaning if an enemy hacker sticks its head out its going to get blown off. All off this is just the passive protection as opposed to hunting them down with the KHD before hand to remove them as a threat. not doing so is like walking a specialist out in front of a linked ML to press a button and wondering why it's now dead.

    The protection is there it just requires more forethought and finesse than a lot of other things. It's something I do on the regular and I seldom have problems these days.

    Edit:
    Providing you have planned ahead and it is within your repeater net or close to another one of your hackers you can take it back through Exorcism or if your'e real desperate and only have an AHD nearby there is always Overlord and Total Control to possess it yourself, then flip it back at the start of your next turn.
     
    #122 Tourniquet, Aug 9, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2019
    RobertShepherd likes this.
  3. Tongfa

    Tongfa proudly selling out since 1991

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    Make the designation of 'Headquarter' troops mean something.

    I like how Veteran and Elite troops have their own designation specific classified as it's a good way of making elite troops have (rightfully) more utility than just a constant swathe of 18-20 specially-trained skirmisher models. Giving 'Headquarter' troops like the Blackjack, Ratnik, etc their own specific classified would be good. That - or just make Headquarter troops 'Elite' troops instead. Right now 'Headquarters' feel both over and underqualified at the same time.
     
  4. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    Had a game recently where my opponent went to great lengths to possess my TAG, but succeeded at the cost of his AHD's life. With only a couple orders left he then had to activate the TAG that was now in CC with a 3pt servant bot, and took three flash AROs that stunned it anyway. I flipped it back at the start of my turn.
     
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  5. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    Hacking a tag in your own turn is usually a waste of orders, or a bad move from your opponent, or the tag was one of the not-so-powerful-so-you-don't-need-hacking as the gecko. Positioning repeaters carefully so no khd hits your hacker and then trying to hack, knowing that if the enemy wins the ftf roll with reset or saves the BTS roll, once or twice, he will get out of the hacking zone, and you have to start again. Is a risky, order consuming move with not so much chances of victory, and even with that, then in the enemy turn a command token with no roll and saved. Of course, in aro is another thing. But to be hacked in aro, the tag owner has to be outwined before it (so the enemy has the game control, and the won without the need of hacking) or made a big mistake (but seems people doesn't accept their mistakes and prefer to blame the game)
     
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  6. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    A couple of things based on sugestions read here:
    - No premeasuring, please: they make turns and especially deployment take way longer because people begins measuring for the optimal deployment of every trooper and marker based on movement, distance to targets and objetives, weapon range bands...
    - Don't change crits: the success percentage is already low enough thanks to Infinity using D20, and they promote the "anything can kill anything" that I like so much about Infinity.
     
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  7. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    I'll add some way for the S5 HI and generally big stuff to see use.

    When do you see a blackjack, or a ratnik? In my meta the ony people who did were those who I brought them against in meme lists.

    When a linked core with wildcard + cheerleaders does it better, of course everyone will go for the vet kaz APHMG over the ratnik (just an example to showcase my point before I get hit with an AKCHEWALLY)

    Not sure how to go about that in a way that isn't point formula fixing. Tactical awareness being handed out to more people? It'd fix a lot, IMO
     
  8. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    I don't think there is a general consensus that crits should be changed.
    The people that think it's fine the way it is just don't say so whenever someone says that crits should be changed.
    The polls I remember did show that there is no general consensus.

    Fatality2 (with high burst weapons) is a problem.

    And Sixth Sense is too strong the way it is.

    TAGs need a buff. (+1 damage does not do much)
     
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  9. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    I don't think there is general consensus, if even there are people that deffends the posthumans cost!

    6th sense is not so powerful is just a counter for some things, that some factions have no other counter. Here is another place were there will not be consensus
     
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  10. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    This is not ol'40K where toughness 7+ were immune to a wide range of units.
    Even without the autowound, there are really few cases where the target would be totally immune to the weapon. Your standard ARM 8 TAG is only immune to pistols if in cover. Most miniatures can still wound it in melee bare handed ! (PH11 or better can wound ARM 8). If you try to shoot it out of cover, there is no ranged weapon weak enough to be unable to wound. So, there will always be a chance to wound. And not just low chances ... A spitfire vs ARM8 TAG out of cover has 30% of wounding per hit, not bad for a high burst antipersonnal weapon.
    The main problem the autowound create is that you ignore ARM/BTS, thus you limit the worth of these stats. What's the point of having ARM8 if the opponent can just fish for crits ? And what's the point of using AP ammos if you can just ignore ARM ? (like why use AP mode MSR if a spitfire would have more chances thanks to burst and crit ?)
     
  11. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    Then, you have problems with the associated costs of some stats/skills/equipment, not with the crit mechanic.
     
  12. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    Gee, kinda like a certain Gregg who is old on here rabily defends Jammers?

    COULD THEY HAVE AN AGENDA PERHAPS? :D
     
  13. spears

    spears Well-Known Member

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    So for those who think the chassis of a trooper is too cheap, presumably one way of resolving this would be to raise the cost of every model in the game. There should be a break point where those extra points mean two of a cheap trooper stop being 'clearly better' than one mid tier trooper.
    What would that price point be for people +4 to everything? Maybe more.
     
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  14. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    Not a bad idea, it would also promote less spammy lists and help some armies when playing Limited Insertion.
     
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  15. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    Well ... no. The cost of ARM/BTS, or AP ammo, is something else. The problem i mentionned is they are being bypassed. The crit mechanic of auto wounding hurt the ARM/BTS and the various weapons dedicaced to fight them, which are often low burst or have some kind of drawbacks. So, no, the problem i have is not with "the many things revolving around being difficult to wound and dealing with said tough units" but "the single thing that render all theses many things less useful". My problem IS with the crit mechanic of auto wounding (not auto winning the face to face, notice it).
     
  16. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    ^ Pretty much this, better rules and change of meta.

    About the meta, I'd like to see a new edition where:
    • Hacking is relevant and adds another layer of complexity to the game, regardless of his offensive uses (and KHDs tunned down or pay an high and fair price (6-8+ points 0,5 SWC) for the amazing assassinating device they get)
    • Spam cheap models is another good strategy not THE META strategy, to achieve this:
      • HI and TAGs need to be more consistent (harder to kill, cheaper, give more orders...), hence the changed proposed to criticals, E/M, monofilament, orders...
      • Hacking needs to be more eficient and give real advantages to high tech armies regardless of the list they are facing (now hacking punish more these units)
    • More interactive play: Smoke and white noise changed from "I can't see shit" to "Let's fish for a critical" (heavy negative MODs), jammers with true dissadvantages.
    • Less focus in ramboing and more in using the full army:
      • Limit the ammount of orders a model can use, reduce the CG from 10 to 5... (this would also reduce the necessity of jammers to stop Rambos)
      • (not sure about this one) Make both players play the active and reactive turn at once, taking turns to make short burst (4-6) of active orders
    • CC changed, leave mid-high cost for CC specialists that can use the mechanic; reduce the cost (or make it more efficient in models where it's now bloat).
    • Sectorials and factions feel a bit more different; with the ammount of new sectorials, units added to Vanilla and mixed links the "uniqueness" of some armies is blurring, so less focus in fireteams and more in make different each sectorial thanks to unique profiles and special rules that enable new styles for that fireteam
     
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  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I don't think you'll solve anything about e.g. Az'rail or TAGs and "medium" HI in general being unpopular by stacking more rules on them. You can, however, address both the impact of crits and increase said heavy units' popularity by addressing the pricing formula by simply squishing some of the stacking costs.
    If ARM is valued less, then a crit also devalues less of the victim's combined worth. If ARM is valued less, then plain-faced TAGs like Guijia (who make no mistake is stronger in almost every way than any of the HI) will be popular because it's easier to build the support structure around them if the upgrade cost is lower.

    There is also less risk of creating situations where they become dominant if too many of their vulnerabilities were to be plugged. That's why I'm hoping for decreased costs more than increased capabilities.
     
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  18. Kiwi Steve

    Kiwi Steve Well-Known Member

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    I would like to see:
    • More incentive to play smaller more elite lists rather than more orders being so essential.
    • More reason to play the full faction range rather than some models being very suboptimal (wild cat, mobile brigada etc)
    • More intuitive rules - largely the rule make sense except for a few like ZoC AROs, camo stacking with smoke.
    • Make jammer a hacking device with a single hacking program.
     
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  19. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Ideally I'd make fireteams less powerful because of yuuuuuge dice modifiers and more powerful because order efficiency plus flexible options.

    Ideally I'd make hacking a much more significant part of the game.

    Ideally I'd weaken warbands and make HI, TAGs, REMs etc more powerful (see above).

    Ideally I'd make Medium Infantry more powerful and less expensive and focus them as the home of elite troops.

    Ideally I'd make command a control more significant with a wider spread of the use of various LT and order pool related skills.

    Ideally I'd refocus the game on low to mid order count forces with a wide mix of troop types.

    Ideally I'd reduce the amount of rules interactions that are clearly unintended and resolve various outstanding queries of various things.

    Ideally I'd purge the Tohaa from existence

    All pretty reasonable IMO. But I'm not getting overexcited with speculation and wishlisting. I intend to enjoy the N4 we get not pine for what I wished for.
     
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  20. Dragonstriker

    Dragonstriker That wizard came from the moon.

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    Consistent Keywords.
    By that I mean don’t use reserved words as part of descriptive text and do use formatting to indicate that a term refers to a game state, skill, characteristic, equipment, special ammunition type, etc.
    N3 does this inconsistently (“special dodge property of Smoke special ammunition BS Attack” I’m looking at you) which is actually worse than not doing it at all because every occurrence needs to be parsed to determine if it’s a keyword this time or just descriptive without implying additional rule interaction.
     
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