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The definite N4 Comments, Suggestions, Ideas, wishlist's and Bugs that need fixing thread

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Not many Pitchers in your meta, are there?

    No enemy in ZOC, no ARO allowed.


    Yes, that's a good change.



    So what is the AHD supposed to do against the KHD?



    Because Isolated is too nasty as-is.

    But then again, I've long been in favor of ISO1 (fixable by Reset) and ISO2 (call the engineer).


    Dear lord, THIS!!!



    It used to do that, in N2. But your Suppression Fire corridor was also only 2" wide.

    I think I like the N3 version better.



    I do like that idea, though it'd make ISS a bit harsh on sneaky types with all the sensor and sniffers they can deploy!
     
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  2. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Use a fixed version of breakwater, one of the changes I want to see is SHIELD Programs fixed and Breakwater rolled out to AHDs.
     
  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    No, but as soon as you get attacked by a Hacking Attack, your non-Hackers get an ARO that they can Reset with. It goes like this:

    3. AHD activates
    4. AHD declares Move
    5. REM har no ARO
    6. AHD declares Oblivion, targeting REM
    7. REM gains ARO, declares Reset.
    8. Take measurements. REM is outside ZoC of Repeaters.
    9. AHD skill fails and turns into Idle, REM rolls for Reset.

    That said, putting pitchers, mines, etc down with the device in LOF of people really should generate a Dodge opportunity.
     
  4. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Have you ever done a count of units in sectorials? 25 is about the average of what's in them right now, and some would have huge holes opened up if they lost anything (especially character heavy sectorials like JSA or Steel Phalanx.)

    Do you just mean declaring move-move?

    This would pretty much remove every army I own from the game. JSA isn't viable with less than 14 orders, for example, and Acon and Spiral do weird things when played at low order counts.

    If you or your opponent can't play fast, you are welcome to set your limit yourself.

    This kind of contradicts your point above (if it doesn't, please let me know how). Allowing any more than 10 orders has already shown to be a deadly buff for rambo pieces, look at NCO and Tac Aware.

    Based on a lot of what you have said, it sounds like Code One is definitely the version of the game for you. It hypothetically will strip down a lot of the stuff you're calling unnecessary.

    That's intentional. Spec Fire has no inherent risk, so it has to have low odds of success to balance it.

    Maybe this is part of why you feel spec fire is useless?

    You can still defend but I do agree basic and advanced impersonation can feel bullshitty. But there are still specific tools that can help you defend in these cases -- bio visor, sensor, etc.

    Maybe this is why you have trouble defending against Impersonators?
    Its seems like in many of the cases here, the tools exist to do what you are having trouble doing, but that you're complaining because you can't keep track of them or remember all of them (perfectly fine, it's a complicated game) and you would rather just play a more simplified version of the game? If that's the case, Code One is probably right up your alley.
     
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  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Biovisors don't help defend against Impersonators, though. They don't prevent Imps to deploy near you, and they don't reveal both levels of Imp on success, so good luck preventing the Imp from getting to where they need to be.

    What Biovisors do do is reduce the risk of order waste when actively hunting Imps, but to do that you need to be able to get your Bio-V to the Imp and not have the Imp already have done their job.

    Bio-V and Impersonation both have some pretty massive implementation issues.
     
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  6. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I agree they have a lot of issues (especially the double layer marker problem.)

    To me, the Kauuri is the gold standard of Bio2 pieces, because it's cheap and has templates. If someone walks an impersonator near my Kauuri, I'm discovering almost 100% of the time, because if an impersonator reveals for a 12 point piece I've neutered its effectiveness by a lot, and if it doesn't reveal I have great odds to make it even easier to discover in the future. Good deployment of a Kauuri can choke an impersonator into a route it wouldn't have to take otherwise, and efficiency is already an issue when you're relying on a shotgun or rifle instead of more deadly weapons.

    I absolutely agree that there needs to be more counterplay for markers, or markers need to get nerfed in N4.
     
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  7. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    They help about as much as MSV2 helps against TO/CAMO first strike in the reactive. You forgot to mention that they nullify the negative MODs for surprise shot/attack out of IMP state, which can be important on, say, the Alpha.

    I'll not argue that Impersonators become neutered (as you mentioned, they can still deploy with relative impunity and active turn still carries its advantages), but Bio-visors work fairly well on things that would be the targets of assassination attempts, or hunting them down if you get first turn.
     
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  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I think you'll need to take another look at Impersonation, because I wrote everything I did with the assumption that 20 times out of 20 you roll 19 or below for your Discover attempt.

    What does an Impersonation unit want to do? It wants to hunt an expensive or tactically important model.
    How often do those models come with BioB? Only in O-12 and only the Alpha.
    Does a successful Discover stop an Impersonation Marker? No, it leaves it still in Marker state.

    What characterizes Impersonation units is that they are very strong in melee and unusually cheap for such a unit. They are cheaper than an equivalent TO unit that and can deploy 12" further than said TO unit on what's often a higher stat and without a malus. And they get 12" of movement to reach their target and roll the dice.

    The only real protection is to play a list without apparent high priority targets (commonly called order spam) or Combined. Or deploy in such a way as to force the Fiday/Speculo to engage in a fire fight which means body-blocking the high priority targets and that right there iis a pretty big tactical win for the Impersonator.

    Now, as far as game balance is concerned is that okay? Yes, provided the army these abilities recide within are sufficiently under-performing that they need this big crutch. That describes neither Haqq nor Shas anymore.
     
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  9. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Doesn't help that two of the most common impersonators are often backed up by Strat3 model preventing you from effectively counter deploying them.
     
  10. armazingerz

    armazingerz Well-Known Member

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    Number of factions
    : No distinction, about 16 factions totally, sectorials included. Much more manageable regarding balancing, updating, references, learning to play, etc...
    10 order groups: second player may suffer too much casualties in the first turn even with a minor deployment mistake, then game's over. Considering how long it takes to set up the lists, the table, deploy... you can't risk a game lasts one turn.
    Kinematica and Immunities: it's an example of people having to have in mind too much stuff playing Infinity, I've seen good players forgeting this kind of stuff.
    FO: I think the problem is the order efficiency, spend B1 orders to have better chances with following orders...

    I hope so. The only sure thing is some sort of N3 game won't be appealing to me.

    When you make a new ruleset, everything is possible. I would like to see a game where people play 9-12 orders lists.

    Odds are really bad, so probably you will waste a ton orders.

    That makes my point, when every player make the same mistake that's bad design. In a good game you lose because you make mistakes, not because you forget stuff. Imagine a game with a 2.000 pages ruleset and every unit has 15 skills, people would forget a half of them all the time. It would be a complex game, but complexity still has to be reasonable. Infinity N3HS is beyond a reasonable point.

    I play Haqq, healing is not order efficient most of the time but in the first turn. It also may be a good idea to merge medic and engineer in a single skill.

    Retreat is also a tricky way to fix core problems (too killy playstyles)

    Not available/too restricted/cap expensive in many factions. With hidden deployment you don't even know where is the enemy.

    Dogged, NWI, etc... are too cheap, and now they use to come with immunities. Cheap orders may be easy to remove or not (mutts), whats is sure is they are cheap, so any order removing them is very order expensive.

    I play Haqq, so I don't suffer from impersonators, I suffer watching my friends deploying. I don't play any Fiday when I feel generous. Marker states rules creates a ton of non clearly ruled situations.
     
  11. armazingerz

    armazingerz Well-Known Member

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    Of course. Generics can have +60 units.

    N4 ruleset and lists will be different from N3, so they may be redesigned to be playable.

    Not in a tournament.

    Agreed, I would like to see a top 8 order groups. 2 groups, max 8 order groups.

    Maybe because it's order inefficient?

    No, no, NO. I'm complaining because I abuse from that overpowered skills, and the tools you say are not well balanced. It requires to be Erwin Rommel, makes an specific list and half an hour to properly deploy safe, and then you need 30 seconds to find the mistake and make your way in.

    Bio visor is bad design. A rule to protect from 2 units in the whole game, not accesible to every army, often in expensive profiles, worthless in 90% of the games (AKA bloat) AND easily avoidable playing first or deploying afar. My congratulations for such a brilliant piece of equipment.
     
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  12. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    You don't heal to gain more orders. You heal because you need that model alive. You heal an ARO troop because you want it to continue ARO. You heal a specialist because he was already half way to an objective and it's easier to heal him than bring another one. You heal a fireteam member to restore the bonus you lost. It is not "is it order efficient ?" but "Do i need that model alive ?"

    As for medic and engineer, that already exists. It's the sophotech and Dr Worm. But they are expensive. You don't want a doc/engi WIP 14 ghulan for 15 pts, do you ? THAT would be a problem for game balance.
     
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  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Number of Factions: That sounds a bit harsh. I was quite happy for several years with the difference that ISS and JSA offered for Yu Jing, it was almost like a modern XCOM or similar roleplaying game where each class had two specialisations. I would be very comfortable if you had a grand faction and two specializations.
    Would you suggest a rotating schedule for the factions cut, or do you suggest that MO goes rogue, Acon explodes, NA2 gets eaten by the Zerg etc?
    Group size: I think I know what you're getting at. I'd be very interested in if, similar to Limited Insertion, they used ITS 12 to test smaller combat groups of 5.
    Immunity: I think Total Immunity was a step in the correct direction, and the game might benefit from easier immunity, but all in all I don't find them all too bothersome. Sure, it's easier to trip up than with f.ex. Mimetism, but at some point you'll have to reach an equilibrium between large squad tactics and small squad tactics.
    FO: It is a B2 skill... you're thinking of Flash Pulse.
     
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  14. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Nah, it's way too powerful and unfluffy.
     
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  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    You say that as if it explains itself. It doesn't. And it's tiresome to have a loose unsupported opinion dumped on you on repeat.
     
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  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    It makes the bearer immune to nonlethal weaponry and E/M. It gives them ARM equal to their BTS; on Karakuris it's way too good. Kind of meaningless on the space furries, and making the dogfaces immune to flash pulses and stun rounds made them dramatically more powerful. So you have a skill that has vastly different effects based on who has it, for a mild increase in cost, that makes them flat-out immune to some units defensive tools (flash pulses). That's bad design. This is basic stuff; I hoped the implication would be clear.

    For the fluff, Flash grenades were specifically used by Loup-Garou against dogfaces, they've been transmigrated to Stun ammo and all of a sudden dogfaces are immune to it all. This doesn't make sense in-universe. Also, there's no reason a dogface's magic space werewolf powers would protect his radio from being blown out by an E/M weapon.
     
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  17. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I can still play a game in a reasonable amount of time with an 18 order ISS list, why should I be punished because other players are slow? I believe the German community uses chess clocks for this reason.


    Also re: combat group size, the consensus among the best players I know / talk to is that second turn is stronger than ever. The reactive turn is stronger than it's ever been before.
     
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  18. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    Only to nonlethal. EM works as normal ammunition against TI troopers...so it can deal actual damage to them! yes...absurd.

    I disagree, you can use cloock-tools in tournaments and limit your time. Actually, that's how should be done in tournaments (I considered myself a fast player, but last interplanetario I got very tightimed, so when I can, I am practicing with those kind of tools for that and get a bit faster)
     
  19. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    They get to choose.
     
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  20. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    Yes, they can choose between become isolated or receive damage, and that is done before rolling, but they are not inmune. And remember that if they choose the isolation side, they can't choose between ARM or BTS then, just use what is needed
     
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