Have you considered applying the specifically designed tools to bring them down (Hacking, E/M, Mono, EXP, T2, Plasma, DA, AP, etc), as opposed to relying on an un-fun and swingy mechanic that invalidates an entire core stat? Because why pay the points for Anti-TAG tools when any scrub with a rifle can put down something that costs a third of my opponent's list before support pieces?
I think that is because not all factions have good access to those tools, and not all of them are equally effective. I'm tired of trying to use hacking as a tool to deal with TAGs just to find, everytime, I need to spend in hacking more than the TAG costs, and that it is too much of order expensive or heavily relies on my opponent to be bad and be hacked, and even when succeding, is after a big order spending. Other tools like ap+exp are more useful, but are not so extended
are you sure you can do it only with one hacker? and now you will tell me that you don't need even orders to get that hacker to the enemy TAG... Giving a realistic answer, 24 and up, but then add repeaters, KHD do deffend your own hackers and so. If you hack with only an AHD you just got lucky
Let me blow your mind. Airborne Deployment and Infiltration frequently have AHD options. A lot of the time TAG users won't be able to afford total DZ coverage with decent Hackers, or will be forced to press forward to complete the mission where you can catch them. It's all in the timing and positioning, just like standard Infinity play.
yes, mind-blowing... I've yet to find someone doing that and working out. Not only by me, but also against me. On the paper is ok, is teorically very posible, but on the table it still isn't working most of the time. Only if the enemy is not doing his job protecting his TAG or is overcofident with it when moving it, or you are spending extra orders and resources, in the evo, in killing first the deffenders and so
Only barely. Kappa vs Uhlan @ 30": 18% ML, 15% Combi Kappa vs Jotums @ 30": 22% ML, 14% Combi Critting is very important when combating TAGs, though the anti-TAG low-burst weapon will gain more from denying the TAG cover or shooting it from behind than the Combi will. Still, some of those weapons are a bit terrible outside of Fireteams...
My anecdotal evidence suggests to me that the likelihood of a TAG list containing two Messenger Remotes is very high (for the factions that can take two) and that the likelihood of them prioritizing at least one roughly 30-point KHD to take care of AHDs is also very high, even in lists that contain TAGs that can enter Marker state. The counter-play you suggest isn't quite as easy or obvious as you make it sound. More likely the TAG will have problems moving forward because critical paths will force it to Reset versus Possession too much. It is after all much easier to defend against TAG/HI pushes using AHDs than it is to assault using them. Perhaps AHDs should change name to Defensive Hacking Device? :p
And I've seen it happen. Anecdotal evidence is inconclusive, regardless for which side we try to apply it. A single camo AHD positioned in a good spot - especially if it's higher up, inside a building, etc. It's not a giant investment, doesn't require much in the way of additional support, and can force a player to steer clear, or spend half a turn worth of orders to get rid of a single threat. This is a good investment. Additionally, when you spend a lot of points on hacking you usually make it a multipurpose tool, not just anti-TAG one. You also counter HIs and enemy hackers, boost Remotes, spot targets (though it's another underrepresented thing, at least from my perspective), not to mention deal with objectives. But that's part of the point. Right now TAGs are underrepresented on table. Changing crits would make the enviroment a bit safer for them, while also making people more conscious about their weapon choices. AP, E/M, and hacking would be in greater demant. This would also give Ariadna a bigger drawback for not taking part in the hacking game, which is another thing that many people were asking for.
Re getting lucky, if you were firing off something like total control sure, but you have a pretty good chance to stick carbonite or basilisk. Odds are you are taking a KHD anyway as it is a super efficient specialist a lot of the time. Then there's the repeaters, while a lot of factions may not be able to easily field mass repeaters like Nomads odds are they are taking enough REMs that it's not hard to get one where you need it. Now that the hacking side of things is out of the way, which not all factions can do well if at all, it still leaves other tools that are damn near ubiquitous across the game such as the following; E/M weapons, whether this is CCWs on characters or warbands, E/Maulers, E/Marats, E/M grenades or any other weapon with the ammo, these can be found nay and everywhere (including ariadna), and will brick a TAG without issue. EXP/DA/Viral/Plasma, any weapon that can force multiple save rolls regardless of the platform (normally CCW, or high dam weapons like SR style weapons or ML style weapons) can and often do get the job the done and most of these are found in every factions (mostly EXP and DA) and that's without even bringing up T2 or mono. AP, this ammo type is found everywhere and often in conjunction with one of the above types, or by itself on high burst weapons. commonly by itself (AP rifle, AP HMG, SMG, B/HSG) on multi weapons (Rifle, Sniper rifle), or CCWs on high Phys models, most of these often are easily and readily available in every faction. Did I miss anything? There is also the high likelihood that you have one or more KHDs somewhere in the 20 point range to clear out their KHDs.
I dont think they care, especially given the amount of native AP, T2 and camo they have. They can drop TAGs all day without breaking a sweat.
It's funny because I agree with both sides :D Removing the auto-wound makes TAGs too safe. That Kappa with Combi barely has 2% chance of wounding an Uhlan and no chance of wounding a Jotums without crits and the Kappa with ML would drop down to below 15% against both targets using dedicated weaponry Yes, the Combi would be shooting from the wrong angle, but they would be completely incapable of defending themselves in the reactive turn, allowing the Jotums to shoot them with impunity, which is not reflected in the Jotums' cost and the Kappa is carrying a gun that's paying for the privilege of being somewhat effective at a large scale of ranges and against all targets. It'll simply shift the power scale massively. They don't know that you know that they know that you know. Those 30-pointers tend to come in different shades of Marker state, meaning attacking them with your own KHDs is difficult and order consuming enough that you run the very real risk of throwing the game simply to try and make it safe for an AHD trooper to advance. If you're dead-set on using your active turn to hack a TAG you're probably going to have to Hail Mary it or deal with the army until one or two turns later when an opportunity presents itself. Hacking basically deserves a topic on its own, touching on a few things like; 1. How weak AHDs tend to be in the active turn due to inherent low burst and poor MODs on assault programs 2. How strong AHDs tend to be in the reactive turn due to how punishing Isolation is to targets that can't fight back without LOF 3. How DHDs are worse at defending than KHDs or AHDs. 4. How DHDs, the "ghetto blaster hacking devices" are really uncommon, even among the scrapheap-challenge factions. 5. How Exorcism can't be used in ARO. 6. How human EVO Hackers seem to be missing several points where a gun should be making them very dicey 7. How Fairy Dust doesn't apply to TAGs 8. How there's 4 or 5 different programs available for the AHD that immobilisation, but you'll end up using none of them because Oblivion exists. 9. How there's 4 different damaging programs available for the KHD but Redrum is the correct program 90% of the time. 10. How despite all of the above, normal Hacking Devices are still in kind of a good spot in terms of utility and, really, all the other hacking devices just makes things messy.
Yes, hacking is a topic that should be addressed in more depth beyond Schrodinger's Hacking or "KHDs ruin the game", but as it is Hacking is in a fairly good (albeit often underused and misunderstood) place at the moment, with the exception of a few outliers. The core devices (AHD, KHD, HD+ and HD) are fairly balanced, with a few outliers like carbonite and redrum that outshine the utility of their counterparts and some upgrades. which if deleted would make it an actual relevant decision on which program to use. Fixing how SHIELD programs work and rolling Breakwater out to the AHD evens the playing field between it and the KHD with out making the KHD pointless. D/WHDs are very much on the pointless side of things and should probably be removed for the sake of streamlining and replaced with a Standard HD. AHDs are also fine in the active currently, while not as efficient as shooting something (and they never should be due to the relative safety they have engaging non HD targets), they will get the job done well enough. you never need to make it completely safe, just safe enough, and you can usually bait them out of marker by attacking with your own KHDs, but its now different than needing to clear out camo markers for any other reason whether it be because it may have a Jammer, mine or something else mildly terrifying. Sometimes it's desperation to get it off a console or to brick it so I can ignore it, other times it's so I can shoot it with out being it being F2F. It comes down to the needs of the table state at the time.
the problem with the programs that IMM is not oblivion, is that they are not strong enough, too easy to remove, so they end beign a waste of time in active, and only used by NHD in reactive. Obvlivion is the only one that is punishing enought o justify hacking as a weapon, but all that complex mechanics justified by only one program is just wrong.
My point with your quoted comment was more that you could, in fact, get to the TAG with no Orders spent and that Hacking relies on the same positioning and timing judgement used elsewhere in Infinity. I have used AD AHDs before, mostly the Tiger Soldier, it's pretty great but it requires cautious use- just like everything else short of throwaway Chain Rifle warbands and flash bots. You shoot the Repeater bots from range if you can and AHD the big stuff, and try to avoid any potential KHDs unless you can reasonably take them down with BS Attacks, like the Bolt KHD. You are pretty much spot on with the weird defensive effectiveness of the AHD though, you'd think they'd give it a few high-burst programs that are actually stronger in active the same way guns are. Boarding Shotgun AHDs like the Deva or Zhencha are a stand-out exception for me though since the shotgun makes great use of the IMM-1 state; you can put templates down through bricked REMs to clear threats like the Dakini Core or deal reliable wounds against armoured targets with the high-DAM AP slugs. It'd be great to see future AHD carriers with weapons more suited to going on the offensive then the balanced n' boring Rifle.
@Tourniquet this reminds me of the recent "hacking overhaul" threads. My wish is for every hacking device to have its signature, inbuilt abilities - just like KHDs or EVOs have them now - so they'd me more useful in their particular application. AHD should get increased Burst on its programs, for example. DHDs/WHDs should be rolled into one device, and have the ability to defend other targets of a hacking attack. I certainly agree that IMM programs seem lackluster. They're still decent at slowing enemy down, but can't compete with Oblivion. I think they should get some combination of increased modifiers/special ammo/burst, so that Oblivion is very punishing but harder to apply, while the others are a constant nuisance.
In my obvious HI-bias, I say that too many options during gameplay doesn't make for good or interesting gameplay - all it does is make the player think too long to remember which gave them a 4% advantage. Stop faffing about with so many programs, remove Icebreaker, Stop!, Oblivion and Basilisk. Upgrade Carbonite to B3 and 2-turns duration to make it clearly and always better than Gotcha! and make Brain Blast and the QOL programs (Spotlight, Hack Transport Aircraft, Lockpicker and U-turn) available to AHDs. Then do the same for KHDs, have one Light Sword program and one Heavy Sword program. The heavy program is what defines the device (support Hacking Devices that your typical Line Infantry carry around have Supportware) Oblivion can be, similar to Exile, a unique upgrade program available only to a limited selection of profiles. In fact, I'd love it if hacking got changed away from being Just a Nomad Thing to be more faction-flavoured - for instance, what if Yu Jing had a program that caused a Discover check by hacking enemy combat feed, if Pan-O were the only ones with Cybermask and O-12, the lovers of glue, had a program that caused IMM-2 instead of IMM-1? I know, first I say remove half of all programs and then I invent new ones. Point is, I'd like to see drastically fewer programs available per trooper.
I'd say not drastically fewer, but drastically different from each other. So that a player will always know immediately what he'd like to use in any situation.
Not in my armies. 29pt KHDs is what I have. You also forgot about how Reset can't be used in ARO due to the Order Expenditure Sequence, unless someone really screws up and declares their hacking attack in the first action of the order. Yes. That is what I want out of the hacking programs. Maybe AHDs get better SWORD programs, but they lose the ones a normal HD has.
