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The definite N4 Comments, Suggestions, Ideas, wishlist's and Bugs that need fixing thread

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Considering a lot of chaff units already have low burst weapon (which is part of what makes them chaff in the first place as they don't pay for what they won't use - weapons that reach B3 and above outside of links tend to be a hike on cheap chassis), I'm not sure why will their value go up due to this.
     
  2. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    suppressive fire will get out of the game and the fireteams would get more power (remember that now, first are the double/halves, then the plus/minus). For linked combis that would become 4 dice in active, 3 in reactive. For linked HMG 5 and 3. For MSR or feverbach 3 and 2 like now. Also, how could that affect total reaction points? and neurocinethics? with that I suppose that 2 dice in active for sin-eater could make him better and there would be claims again
     
  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Keisotsu, Alguaciles, Fusiliers, etc, would for most of their potential armaments increase in B to 2. Increase in "chaff" cost is, which is to say increase in the price of an order, I feel, necessary to keep the game from spiraling even further towards large scale order spam.
    For a linked or Full-Auto combi that's still a burst of 2, I'm not talking about halving the value of the weapon, but the resulting value after MODs, although it is not the Fireteam's ARO burst I want to increase.

    Neurocinetics and Total Reaction are two very potent abilities. I don't see their value being greatly affected by this change, as even though the comparative value difference is lower, burst 2 still won't have as much of an advantage as Total Reaction would have
     
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  4. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    but then you are changing the order of applying mods. Halving or doubling apply before adding/substract bonus, if not, there is the danger of doubling the bonuses, and also making meaninless the rule change.

    and yes, they are powerful, luckyly total reaction is in not so powerful platforms, but neurothinetics, in some of the builds, is or too expensive, or not enough useful
     
  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    There is no such order of application currently like there is in Warhammer. CB solves this in this edition of the rules by simply avoiding making rules where such race conditions need to be resolved.
     
  6. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    maybe is something still in my head from n2 (I remember that was applyed to combined multy ammo)

    edit: well, in coordinated orders we have "half the usual Burst (B) of his weapon, including any bonuses, rounded up". So there you might have a point
     
  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I mean, don't get me wrong, it would be nice if the rules included a priority system for bonuses as fool-proofing...
     
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  8. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    yes, that comes into the "make rules clearer" that we all want for n4
     
  9. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    If they want to make the Kriza Borac as good at shooting as a BS 14-15 unit, just give it BS 14-15 and forget about full auto. It's an obnoxious skill where the same effect could be achieved by just giving the person with it higher stats.
     
  10. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Pretty sure BS 13 with FA2 is significantly better than BS 14-15.

    On the other hand, if we can look past the rule to see its actual effect, why does it matter that much?
     
  11. Del S

    Del S Nomadball

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    A BS increase is actually a bit crazier IMO. The Kriza currently fails on a 14+ assuming no positive or negative mods. Boosting BS improves the Kriza against everything rather than people being a little worse off against him.

    The big issues most people really have is:
    1 no apparent counter unlike cover or camo.
    2 their army doesn't have it on an HMG.

    (it's mainly 1 in all fairness but hey)

    Does 2 extra bs truly have a counter? Yes and no. Now a Borat has BS on par with PanO, you probably can't outshoot him. He ignores 66% of your cover now. 66% of camo, of mimetism, of suppression fire, 33% of TO or ODD, compared to his old stats. You just made him hit the enemy better rather than the enemy not hit him so well. Is that better or just a different source of complaints?

    Plus, that -3 thing, well, not everyone has msv. Not everyone ignores cover. For most units the - 3 isn't a bigger deal, is it?

    It also, in the case of a certain Sogarat, means that the specific profile either goes, or, the entire unit gets the boost. Again it's another idea that changes little but causing deeper complications. I'd prefer a slightly clunky upfront rule than a whole bunch of unforseen consequences.
     
    #1131 Del S, Oct 21, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2019
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  12. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    I like this!


    Meh, it's another Marker on the table. No less grim than the body bags some games use for dead. Though I admit it would be difficult to make a nice 3D marker for Stabilized.
     
  13. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Like has been said RE the majority of models having no way around the -3 imposed by cover and/ vis mods (some of which can only reduced to -3 anyway given the rarity of MSV2), there are other bonuses in the game that currently do not have a meaningful counter (looking at you core bonus), so is the issue here that a a handful of models have a certain mod that can't be countered (all which are S5 HI meaning they are harder to hide, are hackable, and vulnerable to E/M), or is it a wider issue of there being mods in the game that can't be countered?
     
  14. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    had the kriza appeared on yujing/CA as is now, would have not received so much claim. Why? because yujing is supposed to have strong HI, and CA has what they want, so nobody would have argued.

    had the kriza appeared on pano/aleph as is now, no other faction would have claimed much. Similar reason as with the yujing supposition, but those 2 can have what they want. The claims would have come from those 2 factions because the "low" BS, or expensive, or some other unreasonable claim.

    but kriza apeared in nomads, a faction with (until that moment) not so solid non-TAG shoter (task is more in the versatile HI than shoter, intruder is a glass cannon, and so). Every time nomads gets something, there are claims that had been it with those 3 from above, there wouldn't (see the rage about the heckler and the zulu, there were more bile and hatred against the first one). Yet, there are still here that talk about broken nomads when their global results are not so off the charts as other factions.

    this might be a great exageration, I know, but is how has been until now
     
  15. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    It's also cheaper, and brings me to the idea that stats need to be re-costed since equivalent odds can be achieved for less by slapping skills and gera on someone and calling it a day. (See MO for an army where they suffer paying for "good stats")
     
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  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Yup. And that's it, basically - CB needs to stop cheating with points costs. If it's more costly but less effective to just jack up BS the system is broken.
     
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    This is just an idea, but on the topic of Fireteams that people like to dislike that they like others disliking (etc):

    What if Fireteams required LOF?
    When a Fireteam capable model activated, you'd check which Fireteam-capable units were in range and LOF. These units would also activate and act like a Fireteam, providing the bonuses (whichever they may be).

    Basically this would make Fireteams more informal, probably require a reduction in mixed fireteams, but also require you to bunch up your models a lot more to get the full bonus. No more having the Fireteam spread out with solid walls or on different floors while providing the bonuses.
     
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  18. archon

    archon Well-Known Member

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    As this come up in a discussion (I am not sure, if it was mentioned before) I hope they will clear up with skills etc. that apply "shock" to non-leathal or template weapons - it just makes no sense. For example: An Arjuna bot with MML2 ads shock to the weapon and will force you to make 2 rolls (Arm / BTS). This is silly, because no one, not even an Aleph-bot can "aim" so good with a template weapon (that needs no special aiming i.E. BS roll).

    Another thing is the adehesive hits, will not reveil a camo marker, because its a PH roll and not a ARM/BTS roll. RAW correct, but again, it makes no sense. And it will be even more harder to explain to new players.
     
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  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    You don't apply Shock to non-lethal weapons like Flash Pulse. The Non-Lethal trait makes all hits by that weapon cause no damage to wounds or structure so Shock simply doesn't work.

    (I kind of think DTWs should be technical weapons that aren't affected by MODs, I liked the (2E?) Warmahordes way of handling sprays, but I can also see the way they come from having DTWs to be discouragers for against melee units for the more expensive troops - though it's become so common that even street thugs commonly have them now)
     
  20. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    It'd be cool if DTWs still needed attack rolls but just ignored ODD, Camo, etc.
     
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