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The definite N4 Comments, Suggestions, Ideas, wishlist's and Bugs that need fixing thread

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't say problem is with smoke in F2F to begin with. It isn't with throwing per se either, IMO, it's with platforms most of which happen to throw.

    But yeah, you can tweak stats of specific units to tune that F2F if you feel that's the issue.
    And here we're back to point evaluations of abilities again.

    And on a side note, there's a world of difference between Deadpool just dodging your shots and standing in a cloud of eclipse as a result of successful f2f.
     
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    This might be my personal preferences speaking, but if I was forced to choose I'd get rid of Special Dodge rather than the +3 range band
     
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  3. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, if you've ever seen actual military smoke grenades in action, they take significant time to generate a smokescreen. Even the fancy vehicular smoke launchers that break down into lots of fragments to spread smoke as fast as possible take several seconds to block LOS.

    But I do understand why the Smoke ARO is a face-to-face (to minimize weird exceptions to the rules). I'm actually thinking that removing the ability to throw smoke as an ARO might be the least-complicated option.
     
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  4. Bellyflop

    Bellyflop Well-Known Member

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    I mean, we dont have actual military transforming cat robots right now either. Maybe in a few hundred years they worked the bugs out of smoke grenades.
     
  5. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Yeah, there's lots of ways using sci-fi tech you could justify them, and working backwards from their effectiveness on the table they'd be an incredible boon to armed forces using them. So the real question should be how well they work in gameplay. I have my opinions, but it's a complex issue.
     
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I don't think you need sci-fi to justify it, I'm sure that synching a flashbang and a smoke grenade can have pretty decent effect of being a distraction, I'm talking strictly gameplay here. *If* there is a problem where smoke grenades makes dodging too easy, then I value being able to reliably stick down smoke for manoeuvres and MSV2 more than being able to dodge well with them.
     
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  7. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    The Challenger 2 smoke screen is pretty much instant , though I believe that works by injecting diesel into the exhaust. I can see a similar thing 175 years in the future with a superconductor element heating up in a second or so (the time it takes to throw the grenade) that is sprayed with compressed/high density fuel to produce the smoke.
     
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  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    As long as you're stuck on realism, let me just put this out there: are you trying to tell me a grenade that is thrown is ever going to have time to detonate before your opponent has shot several bullets? It takes a driver around 1 second to start breaking, so let's assume a soldier filled to the brink with adrenaline with their gun already propped to the shoulder takes around 0,5 seconds to fire a bullet, which means they'll have had time to shoot at least 30 bullets or one or two controlled bursts before the fuse timer has gone out on the grenade - not counting the time to arm the grenade. Even if the soldier is able to arm the grenade without being shot at, wait for the fuse a tiny bit, and then throw it, I doubt the grenade will even have left the hand before an alert enemy soldier has pulled the trigger.

    Let's leave realism at the door, there's no sci-fi explanation that involves throwing that'll fix that one. But if there is an explanation, then that will also be a reasonable argument for all grenades to gain Special Dodge. But still. Forcibly suspend your disbelief so we can get gameplay, please.
     
  9. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    It's only smoke-type weapons that need an extra rule; damaging grenades (including flash/stun) already provoke FtF rolls via the normal conditions.

    I find it slightly frustrating that White Noise isn't FtF against models with MSV.
     
  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Like I've been over in a different thread, smoke grenades don't need any special rule to provoke a FTF if thrown in a similar way to a normal grenade.
     
  11. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    I probably didn't read that thread - are you contemplating a rule where smoke is only FtF if you can physically place the template on top of the other model?
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    No, if you place smoke so the template touches an enemy, that enemy is directly affected by the template which is why they are allowed to declare Dodge. This "directly affected" also fulfils the Face to Face criteria without having to use Special Dodge.
     
  13. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    they are non-lethal and don't affect directly anybody (they put zones, nothing more), so they need extra rules to have ftf roll. Maybe they could just make the "special dodge" suffer a -3. If you wanna throw it normally, you get your normal bonuses, but in FTF roll you get an extra -3. Or just make it like with white noise and get rid of the special dodge thing. There are a lot of ways to deal with this, and none of them will make everybody happy.
     
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    The rules arguably doesn't agree with you and the examples of how to apply the rules do literally not agree with you. But I've been over this on the rules forum, find the thread there and make an argument after reading through the discussion first.
     
  15. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    If a weapon cannot affect an enemy and stop him from doing his action, it cannot do FTF roll. Smoke does thanks to special dodge, without it, it cannot, as happens to white noise (which doesn't have that label). You could ARO, but that would be normal rolls, not FTF.
     
  16. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    I would like to point out that in terms of game mechanics, capability of stopping opponent's action is a consequence of F2F rule, not a cause.

    Also, are you saying that flash pulse cannot f2f unit with Total Immunity? I wasn't playing attention, I guess.
     
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  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    This is factually wrong, because smoke does affect the trooper, otherwise a trooper couldn't Dodge when affected by the template as per the example in the smoke page and as per the rules regarding templates. Not to mention that you'd have to ignore the English language definition of "affect". Now, this is not the thread for this discussion, please take it to the relevant 6+ page thread on the rules forum.
     
  18. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    no, somoke puts a zone, it doen't bring a status or cause a wound on anyone. Also, troopers using smoke don't dodge but shoot (do a BS attack), the special dodge label is what it makes the FTF roll. We can not use the examples of the rulebook because they have the label into account. We are talking in a hipotetical cased (taking out special dodge label) so I doubt any previous discussion will work here. Or are you telling me that, with white noise, I can FTF rolls?
     
  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but only if you touch the enemy with the template. It does not have Special Dodge so merely intersecting LOF is not enough.
    (Plus the usual caveat; and only if the enemy is affecting your white noise-ing trooper with an ability that requires a roll)
     
  20. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    No, it will not be FTF roll because it doesn't affect the enemy directly and is non lethal, just puts a zone. If not, it also should work if the own trooper was affected by the template (and again, it wouldn't work). It needs the Special Dodge to be FTF roll, if not, it is just normal roll because without it, cannot avoid attacks.

    well. you suggested me to check rules (and did it again after I checked them). I suggest you do the same. I think we will not get near here