1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra Política de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

The definite N4 Comments, Suggestions, Ideas, wishlist's and Bugs that need fixing thread

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,080
    Likes Received:
    2,150
    Similar to the current low and poor zones.

    Nimbus -3 and -1 burst
    Smoke -6
    Eclipse - zero vis
    White noise -6 visors

    Msv1 reduces penalty by 3
    Msv2 reduces penalty by 6

    Sixth sense ignores surprises but not vis mods.

    This means the kamau is still good, but white noise is a good counter. Or you can smoke attack her friends.

    Maybe even bump up the mods to -9 for smoke if odds are too good. But your average line infantry is going to Dodge a long range combi through smoke 90% of the time.
     
    #881 Alphz, Sep 19, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2019
    toadchild likes this.
  2. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2018
    Messages:
    1,056
    Likes Received:
    1,706
    I appreciate the creativity, but in my head the idea of playing a game where smoke grenades don't block LOF but do impose a -9 visibility penalty sounds like the biggest hot mess imaginable.
     
  3. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    1,853
    Likes Received:
    1,853
    And adds more complexity for at best marginal utility.
     
    DukeofEarl likes this.
  4. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    405
    Likes Received:
    434
    If they were going to keep the worst part of that rule it needs to be limited to ZOC like the delay that SSL2 grants. Having it ignore an additional -3 from the vis would be fine.
     
  5. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2018
    Messages:
    1,056
    Likes Received:
    1,706
    I'm also very mixed on the idea that it might weaken defensive links. It makes one particular strategy against them better, yes (basically re-elevates smoke shooting to primacy, which I'm super mixed on given it's still very powerful even in the current era) but also means you can't avoid engagements with them even with smoke, so basically every strong core link will end up posing the same problem to e.g. ariadna that a kamau does right now, because you could no longer bypass them or smoke into optimal range.

    Like imagine Ariadna trying to fight Riot Grrls under these rules. Absolute hot mess.
     
  6. SpectralOwl

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2018
    Messages:
    564
    Likes Received:
    896
    Swapping the Burst bonus at 3 man link for something else is probably a better solution for linked ARO domination. My suggestion would be X-Visor's effect, reflecting the help the fireteam can provide with spotting.
     
  7. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    405
    Likes Received:
    434
    This is why having LOS blocking effects are important, as a lot of solo models aren't able to favourable engage with fire teams so being able to ignore that mimetic, BS16, B2 weapon that is watching the objective is the only way for them to operate.


    With the +3 from the 5 member bonus could make it become just as obnoxious on fireteams that are already difficult to stack mods on.
     
    theradrussian and RobertShepherd like this.
  8. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2018
    Messages:
    1,056
    Likes Received:
    1,706
    Concur - I'm personally of the opinion that being able to tactically block LOF is a critical part of the game, both in terms of playability and depth.
     
    Section9, Berjiz, Xeurian and 6 others like this.
  9. SpectralOwl

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2018
    Messages:
    564
    Likes Received:
    896
    The thing here is that the most obnoxious links are already in their +3 or 0 band at basically all times, ie. snipers, missiles and HMGs. X-Visor is mainly good for shotguns and rifles, arguably the least problematic weapons in the game, and SMGs which couldn't get much more powerful for the cost and lose the option to use Suppressive Fire when linked anyway.
    It certainly has its role, but when abused in its current form it detracts from everyone's enjoyment by preventing any other tactic from providing meaningful benefits. Basically the only thing needed to fix that though is to take Smoke Grenades away from anything carrying a Chain Rifle, as that doubles the average cost of Smoke and makes it into an actual choice instead of an autopick, hyper-reliable game winner.
     
  10. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    405
    Likes Received:
    434
    The biggest problem with smoke is the platforms that you most commonly find it on, the sub 10 point, disposable very effective and often existential threat warbands (Morlocks, Monks, Galwegians, Mutts, etc.). Being dirt cheap, often high to total AVA, and disposable, makes it so blocking LOF goes from a tactical decision to being able to wall off most of the table.

    If smoke was restricted to 10 point and higher models without it would be less unfun to play against and be more interesting to play with as you would need to keep the smoke pieces safe whilst still needing them in forward positions to get it where it needs to be.
     
    Berjiz and SpectralOwl like this.
  11. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,080
    Likes Received:
    2,150
    Doesn't ariadna have a fuck ton of this thing called camo which gives them quite a lot of tactical ability. It also provides utility to msv1 which they have.
    More things like nimbus could be added to ariadnas toolchest as well.

    Personally I think link team design as an ARO threat needs a bit of a rethink.

    But I disagree that smoke is good for playability. Necessary yes, good, not so much.

    The increase in msv2 snipers in link teams is arguable a worse direction for ariadnas playability.
     
    theradrussian likes this.
  12. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2018
    Messages:
    1,056
    Likes Received:
    1,706
    'Ariadna should have nanotech' is the kind of hot take this thread exists to provide.
     
    WiT? and meikyoushisui like this.
  13. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    405
    Likes Received:
    434
    Phalanx or MAF may be a better example as they don't really have marker state models or infiltrators and rely on smoke to get in position and bypass unfavourable and unnecessary firefights. but the core of the issue remains the same.
     
    Belgrim likes this.
  14. Thaddius

    Thaddius Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Messages:
    224
    Likes Received:
    382
    Fix the Gorgos by removing the profile and starting again
     
    Berjiz, Del S, theradrussian and 3 others like this.
  15. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,080
    Likes Received:
    2,150
    What an obtuse way to take that.
     
    theradrussian and RobertShepherd like this.
  16. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2017
    Messages:
    1,870
    Likes Received:
    1,601
    Random thought №896:

    You should be able to trigger Scavenger whenever you knock your target down to Unconscious/Dead while being in base contact with said target.
     
    WiT?, Section9, Berjiz and 3 others like this.
  17. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,378
    Likes Received:
    1,873
    N4 should do away with the requirements section for Reset (and replace it with Reset is always a valid ARO) because there are no longer situations where Reset is not a valid ARO. It does not require LoF, it does not require the attacker be in the ZoC of the target, it does not require the target be in the attacker's hacking area and it can be declared while engaged.

    Can anyone come up with a case where Reset isn't a valid ARO under this ruling?
     
  18. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2017
    Messages:
    1,870
    Likes Received:
    1,601
    And even if there is, what would break if we were to disregard that and make it always valid?
     
  19. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    613
    Likes Received:
    455
    I also think that smoke/white noise should be revised, but sixth sense is, at the moment, one of the few tools to deffend against some other tools like smoke. Just making MSV1 be able to make LoF through smoke/white noise, but with a -3 (or even a -6) could do much better (and make that visor more relevant). Actually, white noise was created to "nerf" mvs2/3 because they were too prevalent, but that has not been enough.

    but making that it doen't block LoS will make that high-BS troopers, MSV and TO/ODD with smoke be more relevant than now. Smoke to avoid a swiss guard aro and make mission? nope, he might go to low numbers, but you cannot ignore him either, and shotting him is bad idea if you don't go MSV2/3, so you would also go low numbers (lower for anything if no MSV)
     
    Hecaton likes this.
  20. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,378
    Likes Received:
    1,873
    This seems fine to me. That a 70 point threat like a Swiss Guard can be so easily made useless by 20 points of smoke warband seems contradictory to the creators' vision of Infinity is a system where both players are always involved. You can just smoke up your side of the table and play the game without ever interacting with your opponent if you want -- that's not really the game I find interesting to play.