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The definite N4 Comments, Suggestions, Ideas, wishlist's and Bugs that need fixing thread

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

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    Thanks for the clarification. It doesn't match my experiences in list-building, where not including the right kind of Specialist puts you at a substantial disadvantage in those missions.
     
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  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    How happy are people with Change Facing as a mechanic?

    I find myself thinking "why even is change facing, why not only Dodge to ZoC as well?"
     
  3. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, they didn't really need a different skill for that.
     
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  4. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. Dodge getting -3 for not having LoF to the attacker could have easily been rewritten to say that the -3 is applied if you don't have LoF to the active troop.

    Is it simply because of the bonus movement? That could be written in as well... "This movement is not applicable if the user of this skill does not have LoF to the active trooper in ARO."
     
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  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I'm truly mostly questioning whether it is necessary to prevent the movement of a proper Dodge. The only situation I can think of is when a melee unit is trying to get into melee and finds it necessary to use Change Facing Shenanigans to avoid a particularly deadly template attack, but other than that I can't think of a good reason for it, and arguably that's probably a case where you either need to gamble on the dice or admit you're using the wrong tool for the job.
     
  6. Nathonicus

    Nathonicus Well-Known Member

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    Allowing a dodge move would make it harder to catch people out of cover with ad or other flanking troops, I think.
     
  7. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    while we're on the topic of dodge, delete engage and fold it into to dodge.
     
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  8. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    and let MA bonuses apply, perhaps?

    The problem is that you can fail the engage if you judge the distance poorly. Similar problem with CF, however. It's basically a dodge, but with stipulations.

    New Dodge (using nested bullets as I hope they adopt in the new edition):

    Requirements
    • No requirements
    Effects
    • Allows the user to make a F2F roll in order to avoid one or more simultaneous enemy BS or CC attacks.
    • Allows the user to make a normal roll in order to avoid one or more simultaneous direct template attacks.
    • This Dodge roll uses the users PH value and pits it against the whichever attribute the attacker uses (BS, CC, PH, WIP...).
    • In the Active Turn, this Dodge roll is compared to all attack AROs generated by the Active trooper.
    • In the Reactive Turn, this Dodge roll is compared to all Burst (B) attacks from all active enemies. For example...
      • If the user of this skill in the Reactive turn does not have LoF to the attacker when declared, then they will suffer a -3 to their roll. [add if change facing is to be rolled into Dodge]
      • If the user of this skill in the Reactive turn has LoF to the attacker when declared, then a successful roll allows the user to Move - or use another short movement skill that doesn't require a roll - up to 2 inches. This movement is declared before the roll, but is only carried out if the roll is successful.
        • If this movement puts the user into base contact with the Active enemy at any point during that enemy's movement, they will enter the engaged state with them at the end of this order. The enemy can choose where around their own base to put the Dodging trooper. [add if Engage is to be rolled into Dodge]
        • Users who engage enemies using this skill can use one of their available levels of Martial Arts to apply MODs to their own roll and/or their enemy's roll. [add if you want MA bonuses to apply to Engages]
        • If the Active enemy declares an attack of any kind, and wins the F2F roll, the user of this skill receives all pertinent impacts and makes the relevant ARM/BTS roll without moving.
    • Motorcycles and REMs suffer a -3 MOD to all of their Dodge rolls (cumulative with the -3 for not having LoF to the Active Trooper).
    • TAGs suffer a -6 MOD to all of the Dodge rolls (cumulative with the -3 for not having LoF to the Active Trooper).

    This makes Engage more powerful, but honestly, it needed to be. It doesn't really change Change Facing.
     
    #808 Sabin76, Sep 10, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2019
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  9. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    If MA modifies engage, that should go in the MA rule, not the Dodge rule, because Dodge is a common skill and MA is not.
     
  10. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Good call.
     
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  11. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    We would need to remove the ability to come out of HD in the reactive turn in any case. If you don’t perform the infiltration roll until you reveal, it means you cannot know where the model is until you reveal, which means you cannot know if you have an ARO or not.

    It also makes models in HD diverge greatly from other infiltrators, since they don’t fully lose their camo status on a failed roll.

    Fundamentally I have to disagree with this suggestion, since unlike AD, HD models are supposed to already be on the board, not arriving from elsewhere partway through the fight.
     
  12. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    I like engage being its own rule; separating normal dodge and dodging into base contact was a good move in the 2nd -> N3 transition.
     
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  13. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I haven't thought too much about the ramifications of this. What seemed to be the problem with being able to dodge into base contact?
     
  14. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    2nd edition dodge had some bad timing issues in general. I'm not going to go into those in depth. Try searching for "quantum dodge", and maybe you'll find some of the issues still archived somewhere.

    The main reason I like the rules being separate is that it makes two individually comprehensible rules instead of one rule with a million bullet points covering unrelated uses. For example, the fact that you teleport at the end of an engage ARO is actually quite important, since the active player has control over movement during their turn. Otherwise you either allow someone to cancel your engage by walking away or you can block active movement by declaring engage, even if you fail your roll. None of this is relevant for a general "dodge" when no models are trying to enter base contact, and so simply muddy the waters.
     
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Allow me to disagree.

    If you look at Engage' rules, most of it is used to set up conditions that are either already present in Dodge or makes the skill fiddly to use and riddled with exceptions to itself. Where it differs from Dodge are these things:
    1. If not in range, you fail.
    2. Your opponent places your model.
    3. Allows opponent to use CC Attack on you prior to being in base to base.
    4. Is a different skill from Dodge so they make it difficult for Fireteams.
    All of these contribute strongly to make Engage generally useless (except in special cases such as against Liu Xing).

    Simply replacing the touch-enemy bullet point with
    "This movement may be used to enter Base to Base contact with the active enemy trooper only. In such a case as the movement reaches the active enemy trooper, instead of moving at the end of the order place the Dodging trooper in base contact with the active enemy trooper"
    This should have sufficiently similar effect without imposing the full range of negative consequences that makes Engage under-used, though it'll probably still be too ineffective.
     
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  16. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    Frankly, I would just as soon go the opposite direction and make active/reactive dodge separate skills so that new players stop trying to take dodge movement in the active turn.
     
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  17. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I would argue that if they overhauled the formatting of skills, this would be a non-issue. As in, keep the "requirements" box to those that allow you to even declare the skill, but if there are any stipulations within the effects, somehow separate those out so they are clear (reactive/active dodge is a example, but so is the mess that is 6S).
     
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  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Or the other other way. Why not have the Dodge skill do what it says on the tin regardless of active or reactive turn?

    Okay okay, it won't do to have the active trooper literally try to dodge AROs in a similar way to Holo2 sacrificing one of the echoes before rounding a corner (but conditional on a roll), but it's worth (re)consideration I think
     
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  19. natetehaggresar

    natetehaggresar Backlogged Painter

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    I really hate it when I have a link of myrmidons and someone walks around the corner and chain rifles, does the whole link dodge, or do I break the link and try to engage with the near one. To me at least it seems odd that this is even a choice.

    But there are a number of ways the could be changed,
    1. Allow dodge to engage
    2. Allow link teams to perform different evasion skills in ARO without breaking the link
    3. Allow engage to work, even if you're out of range, you either just fizzle the move (or fizzle down to a dodge towards the target)

    If it stays as is, not a big deal, but it feels really cluncky, and I think the game generally is trying to move towards smoother interactions.

    I'd also be okay with active turn dodge getting movement, it doesn't seem OP to me, and might even help melee happen a bit more as you can dodge to get closer to engage which doesn't seem to bad.
     
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  20. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Well, you'd run into things like the Samaritan declaring Dodge as a second short skill and moving MORE than if they had just moved a second time. Since it requires a roll (even a normal one) it might be a trade-off worth exploring, but it seems odd at the very least.