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The definite N4 Comments, Suggestions, Ideas, wishlist's and Bugs that need fixing thread

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Trying to move the Crit converation away from the TATAG thread...

    That's just it. With your suggestion, a crit with mono does nothing a normal hit wouldn't do. It's still a 40% chance it does nothing. Also note mono on anything that is "more or less guaranteed to get to their target" is a 35-45 point model and none of them are guaranteed a crit (Kitsune being the best with a 65% chance). My suggestion changes nothing about being crit by a mono weapon: it still instagibs (why bother rolling?). The idea behind damage 20 but allowing ARM to do something is then it softens crits from all other weapon types (aside from K1) against anything with more than ARM 0.

    I completely agree with your assessment on CC, however.
     
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  2. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Sorry about that.

    Honestly, without major overhauls of other parts of the rules set, there is very little that can be done about crits that either A, does nothing as far as solving any problems with the mechanic are concerned. B, creates more problems, or C, makes them pointless. Any stand alone changes are going to break something somewhere.

    Which is the line of thought I agree with for the most part, it's just the damage 20 doesn't seem right to me where as a +3 or +6 means that only the heaviest of weapons are hitting at 20 but still gives a chance for ARM 0 guys to pass on a 1.
     
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  3. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    And this is likely where we disagree, which then leads us to different conclusions about the "solutions". I actually don't find the crit mechanic particularly terrible as it currently stands and so I'm looking for solutions that don't rock the boat too much. The DAM 20 - ARM for a crit keeps crits exactly how they are for mono, K1, and against ARM 0 troopers because I don't find the insta-gib all too oppressive. Incidentally, people commonly complain about ARM being overcosted and crits being one of the reasons for this. With the DAM 20 - ARM, ARM actually means something... perhaps too much, actually. As much as I love my incredibly expensive toys, I'm not so sure a Jotum or Avatar being able to shrug off crits nearly as easily as regular hits is the way to solve the problem.

    With only +3 DAM, a Jotum in cover is still shrugging off HMG crits (!!!) on 6's...
    And at +6, you're still insta-gibbing mooks with a spitfire, so I'm not sure how that solves what you think the problem is.

    Edit: IIRC when this was polled on the last forums, there was near parity between the "Leave crits alone" and "I guess a minor tweak would be OK" vs "Major overhauls required!" and "crits need to DIAF". And even then, I think much of the stink that was raised was actually due to FAT2.
     
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  4. regelridderen

    regelridderen Dismember

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    I’d also love to see the return to making specific specialists relevant to deal with objectives. I.e. How originally specialists with the proper title could test on straight WIP, while others had a -3 penalty.

    After this button pushing has been left to FOs, Paramedics and COCs and the even more bland Specialist, and this has taken flavour from the game, while simplifying list building.
     
  5. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

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    The ‘right’ Specialist in seasons 10 & 11 get +3 and two Rolls.
     
  6. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I think the point that @regelridderen is making is that he wants it to be harder for the non-correct specialist to complete a mission. I'd disagree with that pretty strongly, but I think that's what he's saying.
     
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  7. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Indeed, the overwhelming feedback from earlier Seasons was that coin-toss objectives suck (average WIP 13, - 3 for wrong specialist type). I much prefer a bonus for having the right specialist rather than a penalty for the wrong one.
     
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  8. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, HMGs were grossly overpowered in N1/N2. To the point that there was a 4" range band where a sniper could be outside the HMG's +3 range and still inside the sniper's +3. N3 did some major range-band shuffling to address that.



    Really agree with this.


    Yes, almost everyone who posted a comment in that poll thread that was negative about crits was specifically about how FAT2 sucked.
     
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  9. Spellbreaker90

    Spellbreaker90 Well-Known Member

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    I would like Crit to just be an automatic success. Auto damage is bad it makes ARM less important than already is considering that Cover grant an automatic +3 ARM. If there are cases where CRIT need to do auto damage you can just make a special rule or classification of weapon, something like Lethal on CRIT the weapon/model with this rule bypass the ARM/BTS roll of the enemy, monofilament and Martial Arts could have something like this.

    Another thing I would like to have is to spend command token to use some order on trooper before the start of the game. Something like putting model in suppressive fire, placing deployable item ect.
     
  10. HANGMAN

    HANGMAN Member

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    Another thing I'd like to see. Models in hidden deployment that are infiltrating to the opposite side of the board should roll once they are revealed, not during deployment.
     
  11. regelridderen

    regelridderen Dismember

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    @ijw

    Exactly.

    There is very little point in getting ‘the right’ specialist for the job, unless you’re playing Highly Classified of course. This simplifies listbuilding to the point, where you can just go with a generic allcomers list. And it also invalidates models such as the doc/eng sophotect, when you can just go with generic specialists, that are cheaper or just better equipped for the shooting game.

    My two major points with the game is, the loss of focus on button-pushing missions and the increased focus on fireteams. Both simplify the game, in the way it is taking it from a tactical skirmish game into more of a clash of death stars.

    I’d love N4 to focus more in making the tactical side interesting, rather than continuously try and come up with new ways for killing.
     
  12. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    But what happens if you fail?
     
  13. Sergej Faehrlich

    Sergej Faehrlich Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Sorry for not going through all 40 pages of interesting discussion...maybe this has been mentioned somewhere before, but still.

    Besides the many small things that could be changed or overhauled, there is (at least for me) one crucial thing that N4 really needs to adress: terminology and wording...both in a syntactical and semantical way.

    Don't get me wrong: there are some things, especially in the latest releases, that in my eyes dramatically changed balancing and how the game feels as a whole. But these are recent additions that we first need to suck in and let time even that out. OP units still can be dealt with...there should not be any hasty alterations to things as that could produce unforseen consequences in a complex game like Infinity.

    As things are right now, terminology concerning categories is all over the place. E.g. Short Skill Move - Movement Skill - Move - General Movement Rules.It's things like this are hard to get into and keep confusing even veteran players every now an then. Categories and subparts of categories should be clearly distiguishable. Terms in the rules need to be clearly defined and then used consistently. The same applies to syntax. If rules work similarly, they should be worded similarly as far as that is possible.

    Timing needs to be addressed more thoroughly. The "all at once" principle is great, but very often there is confusion about when players are allowed to apply effects, declare something or use tools for checking something on the board. This aims at defining "measuring" as a general term.

    Additionally there should be a clear distinction between fluff terminology and rules terminology. It is highly confusing to have terms like NCO or Liason Officer in both "languages". As long as a unit does not have a specific skill, that skill should not be related to that unit in it's unit name, description or fluff.

    I especially dislike the term "Base" as a leftover from N2...Bases have a different definition since Silhouettes have been introduced: in rules terms they are the bottom side of that silhouette. In game terms they are a round piece of plastic. But these are different concepts. "The hight of it's base" is probably the worst definition...as is S0.

    Dumbing down has for sure already be mentioned...for me it's not about reducing complexity, but rather about making it a kind of "Lego" system: standardized "blocks" fo rules that add to each other. Most levelled skills already do this to a certain degree, but there is still some potential to treat similar skills in a more comprehensive way.

    I really think that Infinity does a lot of things really well. It's a fine system and I still enjoy it. Still complexity doesn't need to bee overwhelming or downright cunfusing.
     
  14. Arloid

    Arloid Well-Known Member

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    Not going to read 40 pages of discussion, but I think ED: Escape System should be changed so the tag body is left behind, as it currently stands the Anaconda is horrible without redeeming factors (it’s a super fat Ectros for 66-68 points that makes a fart when its armor goes down).

    Having the tags body left behind means it can be repaired and actually gives it a interesting trait that’s useful.
     
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  15. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    Even if it can't be repaired, just having something for the operator to hide behind could be useful.
     
  16. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Even if it could be repaired operators can't get back in, but having be a lump of cover would be nice.

    All manned TAGS should have ED1, they have the same (If not more) vulnerabilities of the G:RP TAGs but no upsides to compensate.
     
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  17. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I thought manned TAGs were slightly cheaper than G:RP TAGs, but I could be misremembering. I never looked into points enough myself to know just by looking at them.
     
  18. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    If they are it isn't by much (Zeta Is only 3pts above the Szalamandra), but its more that the G:RP TAGS don't also have to worry about Expel, they can get the repair re rolled, have two levels of unconscious, inbuilt courage and can be reactivated if the pilot goes down.
     
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  19. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Presumably the same thing that happens if they fail right now. It would work fine.
     
  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Remote Presence is an entirely free upgrade on TAGs