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The definite N4 Comments, Suggestions, Ideas, wishlist's and Bugs that need fixing thread

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    IN N4 YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO DECLARE AN ILLEGAL ARO IN CASE IT BECOMES LEGAL BY THE TIME OF RESOLUTION.
     
  2. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Sure, you move? Well this trooper is going to BS attack, this trooper is going to dodge, this trooper is going to throw smoke, let me think about what these 3 troopers will do for a sec...

    I don't see that working very well on a practical level, honestly.
     
  3. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    Only troopers entitled to an ARO can declare an ARO. It's quite simple actually. This guy sees your madtrap, he declares shoot against the Hsien.
     
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  4. Click2kill

    Click2kill Well-Known Member

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    I admit "hold action" is too strong as it ends up being SSL1. but i i like the idea of a "hold fire" or "ready weapon" to be able to take a shot at the troop triggering my troop's ZoC ARO if it enters its firing arc. a troop with a gun would be more than ready to fire their weapon at something making noise around the corner.
     
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  5. Shrooms

    Shrooms Member

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    A rework of link team rules.
    Possibly using revised coordinated orders rules in the active turn - it could be simpler if coordinated and linked worked the same way.

    Streamlined Hacking

    Review Saturation zones. (Maybe a flat -1B if any shot goes through a sat zone, rather than allowing split shots to circumvent the effect?)
     
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  6. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    That was very much not clear in your original post :P

    That said... the repercussions seem even worse for the AROing trooper. In this situation right now, you could only shoot the madtrap and the Hsien gets a free move (probably into your LoF for the next order). You probably destroy the madtrap and there's a shootout in the near future.

    In this situation in your example, you declare ARO shoot against the Hsien, and then they don't move into your LoF, moving the madtrap even closer as a result. The next order, the Hsien moves into and out of LoF (or something) and a firefight ensues. I don't see much difference between the two scenarios except that in your proposal, the madtrap is still active.
     
    #26 Sabin76, Aug 7, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2019
  7. siri

    siri Well-Known Member

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    1 - play by intent: should be really explained what is and how it work. Like open information. Im my opinion we have two gerencial aspects in the game - time and orders. So ask the right questions about open info to receive the answers. Not like - who can see me from here?

    2 - close combat - we have lots of interactions that nullify martial arts, like natural born, but unfortunately one faction is completely about CC - JSA! So it's order intensive to go to close combat, plus normally it's burst 1, and everything is decided simple by a roll. On the contrary of shooting where in active you can go to fight in your own terms, be it high burst plus smoke per ex.

    3 - maybe aro should Have a rework.
    4- make TAGS great again
    5 - movement and skill labels - now it's very unnatural. We have short movements skills, short movement, and movement skills. As a point that has been debated extensively in the forum, you can climb cautious move, but the interaction with super jump is not similar. Make it more fluid.

    6 - we can have more hacking spells, psionics anything but made this useful. As a example we have in D&D lots of spells and in my rpg time I knew almost all. Create something like holo, camouflage activated, visor enhancers, extra speed, extra ph, , in haqqislam or Ariadna per example the same could be achieved by medical or drugs.

    7 - we can have tactical cards like in aristeia to change the flavor of a army so this will end the problem with people using programs to have a hint of what is in reserve.

    8 - make aliens really diverse from humans. Plasma, laser, live ammo, enervating ( reduce atributtes), poison, acid, like in aristeia .... make it more flavored, colorful.
    8.5 - with this engineers ( I a bigger extent) and doctors will be more useful. Removing statuses, repairing attributes, amplifying attributes, amplifying armor whatever ...
    9 - I just think that if everything were clear and explained even with new rules or equipments the game can be much more diverse and easy.
    10 - fatality should be reworked especially the crit part.
    11 - be clear in skill trees - martial arts - stealth / nwi- courage / sixth sense - nullify stealth.
    The way is now lot of things are inside the text or examples in the wiki.
    Something like
    6 sense - active- when attacked - when enemy in ZOC nullify stealth.

    12 - make the wiki, com log and army work together.
    13 - be explicit in tournaments rules - how many days before lists should be sent, at least define the army will be played.
    14 - be explicit in time use. Will be chess clock ? Aro Will remove time from the Reactive player? Be it for bad playing or simply bad gaming but some people spend lot of time to declare ARO. Aro Will be paused?

    15 - define the order declaration explicitly- I'll dodge to there! I'll ARO with my rifle ! Just to avoid weapon trade after measuring.
    16 - always make measure from the base. Not the center. If touches the base it I should inside ZOC, FIRETEAM COHERENCE etc...
     
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  8. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    My suggestion with regards to N4 is that CB substantively ignores most community suggestions for N4.
     
  9. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I'm confused. Is this not already the case?
     
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  10. siri

    siri Well-Known Member

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    Not when measuring fireteam coherence, at least as my friends play in here.
    You must be inside 8", so they understand all the base must be !
     
  11. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    I'm glad they set their sights on summer so we can get it by Christmas after the delays.

    I know it sounds dumb but I like having the profiles printed. The day the game is discontinued and unsupported and I'm looking for what I consider to be the best edition might seem far off, but these things happen before you know it and I'll probably still be playing.
     
  12. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    Hey mate, your friends are playing incorrectly. See here: http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Game_Elements:_Terminology_and_Alignment in particular the 'Interaction between zones and bases' section.

    Not to take a dig at you personally, but this is a big part of why I hope the majority of feedback for N4 gets quietly discarded. I've seen a lot of suggestions that are based on an incorrect or out of date understanding of the rules, and even more suggestions for things people think are simple fixes to some perceived problem, but which would have some fairly significant knock-on effects that they haven't thought about.

    Not to put too fine a point on it, but we as a community are pretty crap designers, and our track record for prediction what's actually out of balance in the game is shockingly bad.
     
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  13. siri

    siri Well-Known Member

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    Thanks. I'll show them. I always think they were playing wrong.


    I understand your concerns, but I just think that everything is becoming much equal in infinity, or superfluous, the engineer basically repairs but don't increment, as the hacker has only slightly powers to help a remote have more burst or marksmanship, but why not a plus 2 move, in a HI, or a burst increment in ARO.

    As you said those are just ideas and CB really should discard most of them. I'm not a beta tester, I don't know what they are planning, I think this thread is just to people say what is your ideas and maybe desires.

    :)
     
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  14. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    I expect you're very much right. The community was always going to go into a frenzy of suggestion when the N4 announcement dropped, so it makes sense to have it all in one place per subforum. :)
     
  15. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    I'm trying to avoid the most common suggestions, but theres still gonna be some overlap.

    Firstly, I'm going to say that I actively hope they do not go down the path suggested a few posts above. I hate buffs and buff related gameplay, and as such supportware and fireteams are my least enjoyed elements of the existing rules. I much prefer Infinity as a duel of individual models, where the interactions between models are more "different tools for different tasks" and less "This guy casts power up on that guy".

    Theres a lot of buff related gameplay out there for people that want it, and I find it far less interesting and that it leads to a far more meta dependent game experience than what I get here.

    Edit: Have come back to add a focus statement to this post to help it be more useful.

    1. Visual modifier abilities are too powerful for their cost, and they don't feel like visual modifiers at all.

    Right now, Mimetism and ODD effects function as bullet proof shields as opposed to forms of stealth. Troops with them function more as gunfighting badasses instead of recon and infiltrators. Troops without them, no matter how big their gun or how much power armoured BS they're packing, are gunfighting chumps, flailing uselessly with their guns against a "stealth dude" standing 2" away from them in the open.. This doesn't work thematically and is uninteresting mechanically.

    I'd love to see visual mod rules work in a conditional fashion. For example, Mimetism is a -3 if you are recieving cover from the shooter, or are a certain distance away, but if they are 1" behind you and your in the open, you lose the effect. An alternative would be to simply cut the price of MSV, especially MSV1, by a large margin - it makes no sense to pay similar or higher points for the counter than you do for the ability!

    2. Random list of specific issues

    What I'd like to see in some form in N4 is;
    • Wildcards, X counts as Y etc for fireteams to be slimmed down and made easier to access in army. When I look at a new faction, its frankly very confusing what links with what. Its also not searchable which is a hassle.

    • Doors. In my meta, people are actually gluing doors shut or removing them entirely due to how poorly they interact with the game. I strongly dislike the idea of my ten order limited insertion army wasting an order on "Open Door".

    • Scatter effects. The current system is slow and cumbersome. We used to scatter by using the direction that the facing of the D20 used for the landing roll pointed. Pretty much anything is better than finding the center of the table and then rolling again.

    • Reprice your stats and gear. The most egregious are things such as Wounds, which Corvus seems to be actively gaming through abilities like NWI+Shock Immunity. But CC and ARM are pretty expensive too, and theres a reason that models with SMG seem to be considered the most 'optimized'

    • Critical Hits: These are a feel bad and swing inducing mechanic that seem to do little more than mess games up. Rather than "win everything" I would rather they won the roll you are making, or some such impactful but not totally swingy effect.

    • Combat group transfer: Someone brought this up earlier ITT and I really want to second it. The rule as is feels really dumb and ends up with people hoping their stuff dies so they can transfer for cheaper. That kind of shouldn't be happening, and really shits on immersion.

    • Discover and Troop Quality. Camo is a strong mechanic. A damn strong mechanic. And it feels like part of the reason is that it forces a one dice WIP roll that does not scale with troop quality. Your 40 point guy discovers on one higher number than your 5 point guy. Its ok for camouflage to be strong, but at the moment it is one of a handful of very top tier abilities, and I feel that changing up certain elements such as this would help bring it in line.

    • Edit: Sorry, just had to add it. Fix zone of control ARO shenanigans. The game just feels unfinished with that shit in it.
     
    #35 WiT?, Aug 7, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2019
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  16. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I suggested in the Tohaa thread that Automedikit be one an automatic skill that happens at the end of your turn or beginning of your order count phase. Ignore a corpse? It could get back up behind you.

    The term smoke dodge doesn't appear in the rules. Smoke has the "special dodge" trait.

    Do you have any examples of this?
     
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  17. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    Sure. Most recently, the idea that high order count limited insertion Invincible Army and Morat lists were widely predicted as being hugely overpowered on release; now, invincibles are considered a generally difficult army to play. That's one of the most egregious, but I recall basically every new sectorial has had some power panic in response to it, like the idea that Rui Shi + four ABHs would be a massively overpowered dashat fireteam. And just this week someone reminded me that people predicted that AVA4 neurocinetics chaksas would break the game and be played at full AVA constantly. I appreciate that time has passed since then, but this is hilarious in retrospect.

    I could also have a pretty long convo in person over whether KHDs and SMGs are actually as bad as the community thinks it is, but I'll concede those ones are very unsettled matters.
     
  18. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
    Warcor

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    Total Immunity, Fat2 B5, Posthumans.
     
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  19. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Okay I really have to see where this was predicted. I was pretty sure Morats would be bottom of the barrel after their rework since it didn't really fix many of their fundamental problems.

    This was literally so overpowered that they had to nerf Fireteam composition rules *in the entire game.*

    Okay, I also have to see this. No one takes AVA TR bots, why would anyone take AVA Chaksas that are slower and can't be hack-buffed?
     
  20. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    @meikyoushisui we can have a blarney about it if you like, or you could take my word for it on the Rui Shi. I certainly wouldn't read the cause and effect of the fireteam clarification that way.

    I most recall seeing the Morat fireteam discussed on Vaul's channel, and then enough of a spread for it to qualify as momentary community consensus from there. It took second fiddle to the fufurah about sixteen order limited insertion IA, though.

    And as for the Chaksa thing... what can I say, man. We as a community are pretty bad at this.
     
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