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The definite N4 Comments, Suggestions, Ideas, wishlist's and Bugs that need fixing thread

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    I consider a core linkable Rui Shi to be a line that must never be crossed in the same boat as B6 weaponry. Something that absolutely should not be in the game. I'd even be okay with a haris, but the Rui Shi should absolutely never have access to Sixth Sense (or +3 BS).
     
  2. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
    Warcor

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    From what I know of him, @RobertShepherd could bring a potato for an army list and still place near the top.

    I also agree that Zuyong + Rui Shi isn't really the reason Dahshat's competitive. Dahshat's best assets are its midfield troops, its order pools, and the multi-threat, order-efficient nature of units like McMurrough. The Core link team is basically incidental... It isn't the list staple that's doing most of the work; it's the Hunzakut, Libertos and McMurrough that are lifting weight. If CB were reading this thread, and listened to the above posts about Zuyong and Rui Shi, they'd be nerfing the wrong thing. They could drop them, and you'd still find players reaching for Dahshat as a competitive army.
     
  3. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Once again, it's not a matter of raw potency, it's a matter of being a design concept that is unhealthy for the game itself.
     
  4. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Well, Total Immunity needing a nerf is a whole separate thing, but you're right it's related. Not being able to Flash Pulse McMurrough to shut him down is a big problem.

    The point is not to make Dashat noncompetitive, it's to make it so it doesn't do other armies' gimmick better than that army.
     
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  5. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    Dashat is a bit of a grab bag of some of the most bestest things of the current meta.
     
  6. LaughinGod

    LaughinGod Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    I see some here present how Total Immunity makes you immune to flash pulse as a problem. For me bigger problem is that flash pulse is so strong and good for what it costs and people rely on it so much that they see it as a problem when it won't work on something.
    I saw people arguing that some factions are bad just because they have low AVA on flash pulse bots!
    IMO flash pulse is the one that should be nerfed. Getting an order + benefits of the platform + across the table ARO for 8 points is obviously too good. They should limit the range on it to 16 inch if they want to keep it free.
    Total Immunity is OP only on McMurder and that is because they decided to buff him in combination with TI buff. And he was already pretty good. My problem with TI is that is makes you immune to Monofilament. McMurder being immune to Monofilament is to me like Wookie being immune to lightsaber just because they are big and hairy.
     
  7. Nathonicus

    Nathonicus Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. Flash Pulse feels like it was meant to be a last line of defense akin to electric pulse.
     
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  8. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    There's also the fact that since the rewrite in HSN3, flash ammo got stronger. Stunned is a much more effective state than the old blind was, as it affects a much wider variety of actions and is much more effective at shutting down a model for a turn.

    However, flash pulse has always been strong because it has good range bands and cheap models tend to have higher WIP than BS.
     
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  9. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Well making it so Total Immunity makes the bearer immune to Flash Pulse isn't the way to go about solving that problem.

    Flash pulse isn't too good; it's just that people in the meta realized that rather than pricey SWC-costing troopers being a good defense, the better defense was so-so units with decent AROs slowing the enemy down. If you're frustrated by that... why do you think that people owe you to let your warbands trade up?

    It's also a problem on Symbiomate bearers and Karakuris. It's even a fluff fail, since Flash weaponry is supposed to be effective against Dog-Warriors (hence why Loup-Garous used to have Stun Weaponry).

    Overall, Total Immunity is a problem now. It worked fine the way it was.
     
  10. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    What changes specifically?

    The "Total Immunity is Immune to Flash ammo" change, or something else?


    Yeah. that's a really big issue.
     
  11. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Honestly, it seems almost intentionally designed that way.
     
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  12. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    I personally think the change from regular impetuous was the straw that made mcmurder amazing. Previously he'd often die from super jumping into a million AROs.

    Now. He just can't claim cover. Oh No, what a drawback, how will he survive with his smokes on 17s and ARM 4 TI flak jacket.

    Flash pulse could be tweaked to be 0 range bands I reckon.
     
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  13. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    The best way to fix total immunity is to delete it.


    Honestly I don't think total immunity is a very good rule. There is no reason for dog warriors or Karakuri to be less exploded by an anti tank missile than anything else.

    If it is mutant healing factor, give them regeneration (and make regen suck less).
    If it is damage resistance, give them higher ARM.
    If it is durability, give them higher W/STR.
    If it is tenacity give them levels of courage.


    Total Immunity is pure rules bloat and should be deleted.
     
  14. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    19's, dude.

    In any case, Flash Pulses are basic defensive tech, every faction has access to them. I don't think they're the problem. It's not like the game was too defense-focused.
     
    #374 Hecaton, Aug 16, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019
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  15. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    The addition of Berserk and granting him normal Impetuous. Those 2 changes are quite strong (and unneeded) buffs, but it's the fact that he gets those changes on top of the new Immunity:Total.
    Furthermore, he should get vulnerability to Stun, which means he's still immune to flashpulses, as they are Blind Ammo, but not immune to multi weapons Stun ammo (which is totally ridiculous)
     
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  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Honestly, TI shouldn't affect nonlethal ammo. Just because you're on drugs shouldn't mean that someone can't fry your cb radio with microwaves.
     
  17. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Monofilament weapons not being able to cut through people because... reasons... felt kind of silly. With how ridiculously expensive they are, having all those immunities suddenly pop up really hurt.
     
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  18. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Can I also mention how much Total Immunity fucks up the costing of units? Karakuris suddenly becoming ARM 6 is a slap in the face to every unit that had to actually pay for it.
     
  19. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    But manipulating the formula is the name of the game.

    arm 0, BTS 9, total immunity FAT level 2, NWI, shock immunity WHEN?
     
  20. Alfy

    Alfy Well-Known Member

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    I know this has been mentioned before, but I as continue discovering this game, I wanted to add my two cents.

    The rules MUST be tightened significantly. Basic principles must be outlined clearly with well-defined processes, while exceptions must be outlined explicitly. This includes some core concepts that I realise, going through the rules section of this forum and others, are not nearly as clear as I thought initially: FtF rolls, timing of AROs, who you can target, what is open information...

    Game terms must be properly defined, their italicisation systematised, and whenever possible, alternative language should be used instead of using those same terms colloquially.

    And while I'm given to understand the Infinity community is generally "nice", I'd encourage CB to think about tournament regulations. Not that I intend to go to tournaments anytime soon, but writing such regulations is the chance to think about stuff that is generally not included in a rulebook, such as required communication between players, who maintains the game-state, etc.

    I know CB is not a big outfit, but I am amazed that a game this old still has so many discrepancies. I was watching an AAR from a tournament yesterday, and it is shocking to hear: "we both agreed we think this is how the rules work, so we did it this way".

    And while this is not an N4 point per se, I'd really say a N4 release would also be a time to get a reliable system for quick-answering grey areas. I understand some cases might have far-reaching consequences on balance, but I also believe there are many cases where the intent of the designers should be enough to tell us what is what. I was reading the thread on whether crits on template attacks still inflict their other crit-related effects on models that were not targeted, and it's amazing this is actually up for debate: whoever made the rule should know how they wanted this to work, so the answer should be immediate. Heck, CB should know how they use the rule when they play themselves...

    Edit: and I also think CB could be more specific about their reasoning and intent in FAQs. When resolution is provided to avoid edge-cases, it's better to be up front and explain the offered solution, especially as not everyone is aware of the history behind it. For example, the latest FAQ on LoF is properly confusing to those who do not understand what the new rules are supposed to solve (I know I'm not the only one who saw the example and thought: "oh, they made a mistake").