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The definite N4 Comments, Suggestions, Ideas, wishlist's and Bugs that need fixing thread

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. SpectralOwl

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    Personally I'm of the opinion that Combat Jump is fine as it is. High failure chance to be sure, but getting a weapon exactly where you need it is as powerful as Impersonation. I've had single AD troops put opponents in Retreat before without anything close to the hot dice you'd need to perform that feat with anything else, especially with something as cheap as a Boarding Shotgun.
     
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  2. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    they might look similar, but there are big differences that make AD not as good as impersonation: they need their own order to be deployed, which can create AROs, those rolls can be FtF if there are HD, and they don't enter in a marker state (that sometimes need success in 2 orders to discover them). The AD advantage against impersonators is that they appear when you want (I think this is its main advantage) and the access to heavy weaponry, but lot of the time the AD trooper is deployed with shotguns, combi and so. The are used thanks to the levels below that allow them to be deployed without roll though
     
  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Armihaul, you're confusing the Liu Xing (who has a problem getting to a good spot because it's extremely easy to cover a deployment zone with repeaters even for JSA and Louie doesn't have Stealth) with the Zhencha (who doesn't have as much problems with hacker because it has stealth, but has a huge problem mines because it's the only HI that's vulnerable to Shock). What is a problem to one of them is merely a challenge to the other, and what their individual problems are problems and not challenges because of the points and tactical investment.
    A hacking net is a challenge to a Garuda, not a problem, because a Garuda is not a major investment and it has the speed to effectively use worse deployment positions to great advantage.
    A mine is a challenge to a Guilang, not a problem, because the Guilang is not as huge an investment as a Zhencha and the Guilang exists in sectorials with plenty of alternatives should they be locked down by a mine.

    I don't think HI or Hackers is a good idea, but rather I'd like to see Ghost be the target of Possession. Ghost units are made to be remotely controlled so it makes a lot of intuitive sense for them to be highjacked. For manned TAGs the flip-side would be Expel.
    And yes, Exorcism as ARO! Absolutely! Hacking to counter Hacking is a perfectly viable design.

    Nah. Combat Jump is fine, not overperforming like crazy the way Impersonation does. I might never roll a success for landing with AD:CJ, but it sure does work against me, so AD:CJ not working is a me-problem. :p
     
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  4. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    I think AD is fine after losing the template for dropping.
     
  5. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    A chance of failure does not equal a high chance of failure, and would hesitate to refer to what is often a 15+ (average AD phys of 12 plus the hack buff) roll as high chance of failure. Even when its opposed the average enemy hacker is on a 7 and there is likely only one enemy hacker on the table capable of HTA.

    Combat jump can often be one of those things that will turn a game around as it allows the player to react to any board state and evolve it in a way incredibly favourable to you, whether it's to break a pin and make space for other elements in the army, carry out something critical to the scenario or just slaughter everything from an off angle and completely cripple your opponent. The fact that there is a chance to fail is a more than fair balancing mechanic.

    Impersonation on the other hand..........
     
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  6. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    yes, CJ can do all of that, and I agree. But is not so used. Spending an extra order is not a good solution if it still can faill, and that's the reason most people that use AD don't use CJ.

    got really better, I've seen much more situations where using CJ than before, still not enough IMO.

    I think you are not reading me. I say that most of the claims I see (and I don't mean only here in the forum) are that they are bad "because all HI in IA are 1W with NWI and not shock inmunity". Really, I see that a lot even if, as you say, is not true, and usually those comments are for all 1W HI in IA, The stealth thing is something I think unrelated to IA, but with all stealthed HI in the game, specially the martial arts ones.

    with this...I have to agree with you. That change to possession would be cool (you will not see it like that, because it affects certain faction the most, maybe we will see it changed to "a TAG or presence remote HI/REM" but not to ghost, and specially not "limited to" ghost.

    AD I think in overall is ok, but CJ is not so used as it could be. Most of the units with access to it, use lower levels to appear from the sides.
     
  7. Crusader

    Crusader Well-Known Member

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    I think Hacking's major issue is the lack and / or inconsistent targets. If it has targets it is really powerful if it doesn't have targets it is wasted resources (as already have been discussed previously). A way to make hacking more meaningful is simply to incentivise to bring its targets.

    During N3 (in previous years and even now) Camo outpreformes HI so wastly that someone have to deliberately bring HI (and handicap itself) instead of a Camo troop, apart from a very few exceptions. Camo marker state simply brings so much survivability for a fraction of points of 2nd Wound and +2-3ARM that is is not even funny.
    Just think about how many Orders can soak and how much damage can dish out a 21 (chainrifle+LSG)/25(BSG) pts SAS, 25pts Clipsos, 20pts Chasseur, 18pts Zero, 28pts Zulu etc. You have to spend orders on a once-per-model Discover with -3 ot -9 MOD, after that on a separate order to shoot it (still with -3 / -6 MOD). Even with a DTW you have to make an Entire Order and a WIP test to attack that bush on the middle of the concrete road. MSV2 helps, but you only have 1 or 2 of those models and who are well within the 30+ pts range for 1W units, and still they have to burn orders on -3MOD Discovers (cover) first.

    On the otherhand you have the 35-40pts ORC, Brigada, Janissary, Wu-ming, Shang-Ji, Suryat etc who can be attacked at-will either with normal BS weapons or with DTW-s, vulnerable to hacking, vulnerable to AP ammo (which is in greater abundance than the much complained-about-Shock), K1 ammo and especially vulnerable against T2 (thankfully it is quite rare). Plus they don't have Infiltration / Foward deployment either so it is more Order intensive to move them on top of all the aformentioned differences.
    Yes a HI can eat a mine or a single DTW ARO (unless it is Fire) without problem, but that hardly compensates the difference of difficulty to remove a model between the two troop types.

    All in all you are extremely discouraged to bring HIs or TAGs when you have acces to any kind of Camo trooper in your army of choice, there for makes Hacking more binary and hard to adjust.
    It is not a coincidence that Limited insertion and Tactical Window ITS formats have been created, alongside with skills like NCO and Tac Awarness or the MOV buffing of HIs to 6-2. Creatives at CB know they messed up their units balance and try to compensate for it, but unless they change Camo too (or its counters) it won't change the fact that a Ghuille suit significantly outpreforms Mechs and power-armours.
     
  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    That claim is so factually untrue and easy to disprove and since the only unit that suffer from it is also not even the worst HI in IA*, I think it might be more likely that you are misunderstanding the person making the claim. Not to mention that I haven't ever seen that claim be made so it's either in deep conversations on forums I don't visit often (such as Caravansery or Nomads forums) or it's made by people on FB or in real life.

    Just to be clear, my comment on Stealth is not an argument, but a statement of fact and without much value in it. I personally think the dynamic of counter, counter-counter and anti-counter that Stealth introduces to Hacking is interesting and only really spoiled by how easy it is for sectorials to get Sixth Sense.

    Most of the units with access to it uses Airborne Infiltration instead because their user is either to chicken to roll the dice or puts too much tactical value in the unit to risk on a roll of the dice - if the table set up allows it. This does not mean the value of Combat Jump is inherently flawed.

    The above two reasons is why I don't use Combat Jump, btw.

    * Zhencha is actually quite decent as long as it doesn't have to deal with a lot of mines
     
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  9. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    I will not say that what you have seen is untrue, I can only talk about my experiences and what I've seen. If you have not seen that kind of comments, lucky you. They are not as common as the coments of "YJ is OP" (yes, I've seen those too, one today in the spanish forum), but they appear from time to time.

    the stealth, while I agree with you that it is a tool to deffend against hacking, but it is so much spread that it makes that a lot of units have access to that "counter". It should remain, but IMO, it should not be so spread. And while SS is easy to obtain, the access to stealth has made it more of a necessity for hacking, than a nuisance for those units. In the end the result is the same: hacking is the one underperforming.
     
  10. Willen

    Willen Well-Known Member

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    Hopefully with N4 "opening up" skills, Stealth can be removed from MM and similar skills and we get HIs that are somewhat good at CC (which CB seems to love) while still not being able to tip-toe around repeaters, giving us more Hacking defense options against those types.

    I really hope tht CB is considering at least some lesser level of Possesion Hack against Ghost units. Something like minesweeper, at the minimum: you can´t control it directly but you get its order since now the hacker is using the target´s visors and sensory equipment to provide better tactical information.

    I mean, perhaps Possessing the enemy HI or Attack REMs looks like too strong for CB, and this kind of program would allow Hacking to be more useful while still giving you access to a valuable resource, orders...
     
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  11. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    I read every Nomads post and I'm not sure what you guys are talking about.
     
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  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I don't read too many posts on the Nomads forum and it seems to be Armihaul's primary hang-out, so figured that might've been a place where someone made the audacious claim that all IA heavies have 1W and are vulnerable to Shock... I haven't got a clue, tbh.
     
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  13. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    [​IMG]
     
  14. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    Well. I read several subforums whitout participating much, and I am not saying that the people that make those claims are even a mayority, much less all of yj players. What seems to me is that maybe you have those people ignored, or that you missed those post, but also I sayd that I've even heard that in person. Last time was in mallorca, in the EIC by two dudes who none played IA in the event. But anyway, if you prefeer to think that I am lying is up to you.
     
  15. Sedral

    Sedral Invincible Officier

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    @Armihaul Should we really care about those claims if they're wrong from the get go? Even I, as someone who absolutely despise the fake-HI concept, admit that it's definitely an upgrade for the Liu Xing. It's a bit more problematic for the hulang and the haidao though, since it makes them very vulnerable to viral, but fortunately it's rarely relevant in game.

    Also, IA's issue with hacking have more to do with the very limited and akwards options they have to deal with it rather than hacking itself. The Liu Xing is already much easier to play in vanilla, with support from forward deployed KHD and non-hackable troops.

    Anyway, on the topic of hacking, I also think that spotlight being usable in ARO and without -3 WIP mod for the user is a massive boost for most hacking devices. I'm not sure how hard a rework hacking really needs, I think like most that Oblivion/possession programs and KHD are the main offenders and should be reigned in. Not being able to suicide-jump TAGs anymore is already a massive nerf for possession which is great, but the most awaited change is definitely Oblivion and how they'll handle isolation as a whole.
     
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  16. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    For the most part hacking is fine (despite what some others might say) the main problem is that the rulers and programs have a horrific layout which make it seem more complex and dense than it actually is (being stashed away in the advanced rules along with terrain doesn't help much either), along with the majority of the game able to opt out with now appreciable impact, and a minor issue with program bloat with now defined purpose for each one (There are 7/8 programs to kill something when there should probably only be 4). Also the SHIELD programs need to be fixed as currently they cant be used in the majority of cases where you want to use them.


    On the topic of possession, I've been thinking about it a bit more after talking to people (And listening/reading to people talk about their experiences) how have tested the new cover(providing they dont change) and crit rules, it become a core part of the games weapon sandbox to deal with TAGs if for no other reason than to walk it out from behind cover, turn it around and get one free shot in the back of the head.
     
  17. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I'm really hopeful that C1 was a way to get rid of this distinction. The distinction between basic and advanced rules in N3 is very arbitrary.
     
  18. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    And creates unnecessary anxiety over the rules contained and their complexity, which creates a barrier to learn them and provides a nice neat way to just ignore them.
     
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