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The definite N4 Comments, Suggestions, Ideas, wishlist's and Bugs that need fixing thread

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I'd rather characters were unique rather than "does their job an order of magnitude better than another troop of the same type." I think Van Zant is actually a good example of a character who does something unique. Dart is just "A midfield infiltrator, but better, without a commensurate hike in points." McMurrough is "A warband, but better, far better than his points cost would indicate."

    And there are non-specialist Zhencha profiles, my man. In a mission like Firefight where you don't really need specialists, Dart just makes Zhencha look like shit. The fact that Zhencha die to Antipersonnel Mines, are hackable, and Dart is highly resistant to shock ammo and immune to hacking is a horrible joke.
     
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  2. Modock

    Modock Well-Known Member

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    Regarding crits...what about making an ARM roll with half the value rounding up.
    Crits ignore cover bonus. Quite easy and arm would still help under crits.
     
  3. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Seconding DAM20 crits because it quite elegantly deals with the weird ammo situations as somebody mentioned, and having your model die to a DAM20 hit instead of auto-die feels considerably less bad to me.

    This. I want rules of a like nature to work the same way. If the idea of Memnomica is "mitigates LoL" then let it always mitigate LoL. Don't make some types of LoL be affected and others not. This is the type of streamlining of rules I highly support.

    Fuck man, so much this. One of my main opponents is Ariadna and I'm totally sick of being Uxia McNeil'd every game lol. She utterly outclasses the SAS CRAP that she is sort of built around, in the same way that McMurrough essentially obsoletes the Cameronian. Now it feels like every single Ariadnan army is led by Uxia and every single special operation by the Caledonians is spearheaded by the same mercenary.
     
  4. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I'm actually going to disagree with you about Cherry. Superior Infiltration is something "unique" that she brings to the table, and helps to open up the CHA game especially against dangerous ARO pieces. In vanilla Ariadna, yeah, it can be a bit much. People will still bring SAS if they need an infiltrating specialist or close-range midfield killer. Uxia is closer in function to an impersonator; she's going to die, but will hopefully take out something important on the way in.

    Then there's that weird MSV1 profile that nobody runs. I dunno what that's meant to do.
     
  5. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    As a smoke wielding specialist version of the CRAP, I see her as almost strictly better. If only Caledonia got the superior infiltration profile it would be different, right now for me its just another optimized tool for the toolbox and an example of OTT characters vs their vanilla counterparts.
     
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  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    One would argue that this is the trade-off you make for having an extremely strong unit get an extra order, and in this case also gives you the ability to manipulate the reserve model mechanic. I'm really hoping this doesn't go away, but (see next quote)

    Arguably this is less of an issue with the skills and abilities that allow you to prevent LOL and more an issue with how CoC is distributed in factions. For some factions, like JSA, it makes sense for the CoC model to be a focal unit, cynically being the real mastermind of the operation just waiting for the puppet LT to go and die with honour. Tohaa, on the other hand, doesn't quite have that vibe since they rely so much on Fireteams, it doesn't make as much sense to have easy and cheap access to CoC - not that I play Tohaa much but I don't think I've seen them spend the LT order unless it got transferred to one of the Kaeltar. Arguably it would make more sense if Tohaa instead of CoC had extremely easy access to hiding the LT by having a large number of profiles capable of being LT.

    I would say that in general, CoC should only be distributed where it makes sense to play with it and where the army is designed to use it as a fall-back. I'm not sure Pan-O is such a place and the weird placement in Yu Jing makes little sense. While CoC is undeniably good (considering how common it used to be to give this to the Spec Ops), it needs to be placed where it in armies where it will be used and on profiles fit for purpose.

    I don't think Hecaton made the argument that characters should be units with the same statline as their originating miniature, as I read it the argument was that characters should have similar reality checks as other units instead of going bananas in design.

    Because Zhencha is the only unit in IA capable of performing decent assassination runs, the Zhencha's primary role becomes the same as the Dart's with the exception that Dart is better armed for this purpose in a way that Forward Observer and a DEP doesn't quite make up for. So while it is fine with both sharing the same skill set and primary role, arguably the better model that's harder to stop should cost more.
    Buuut... I'm more than willing to put this down to the ARM and HI price scaling issues, which I hope will be adjusted in N4

    I've had the MSV1 Uxia ran against me a few times. CHA has essentially been discontinued in the Stockholm meta at the moment, I don't think anyone is willing to play them anymore, but back before they got left coughing the exhaust fumes of newer releases that profile was used to provide a more sustained attack vector.

    I actually think Uxia is a decent implementation of a character unit of unit X. She's not like Goldstein who has completely different modus operandi from the original unit, but instead just does it better. It's a bit at the expense of the original unit, but on the other hand aside from the grenade profile, the SAS profiles are a bit... meh... so I don't think that's Uxia's fault.
     
  7. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Oh yeah rolls for deployment Skills.
    They should be random but not binary.

    Not a single one of the Infiltration ir AD rolls is really tactical. Most of them are "take a 35-80% chance - fail get nothing".
    Far from an interesting decision.
    Inferior Infiltration should just limit your deployment to a random area of the board instead of being flat hit or miss.
    Infiltration should just reduce/increase the distance you can Infiltrate depending on your roll.
    Superior Infiltration should still be risk vs reward, so still a chance to get reduced deployment with a very good chance to Infiltrate further up the board.

    Same for AD. The lower random walk in ranks are supremely bad. While 16" scatter is way too moch for anything that isn't an AI Beacon or completely garbage at airdropping.
    You should always be able to at least get an entire side of no mans land for walking on instead of a quarter.
    Combat Jump and above should have some amount of control over either direction or distance of their scatter.
     
    #227 Teslarod, Aug 13, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
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  8. MerloyJenkils

    MerloyJenkils Well-Known Member

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    I would remove rules like retreat... damn who keeps tabs? Let the fight go to the bitter end! ALWAYS!

    But seriously, I would really look for those rules that make sense but are so hard to keep tabs on or that really everyone forgets about because they are nitpicking, like the burning of equipment. There are markers I have never seen being used... Things like Sat Lock. They are very interesting but so hard to grasp and almost nobody uses it I'm sure. Yes some did bother to read the rules but either make it more proeminent and streamlined or just remove it altogether!
     
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  9. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    I think those skills are just too order intensive or too dangerous, compared to just shoot.

    Why bother to Forward Observe (for targeted) someone when you can simply shoot him?
    Why spend an entire order for Sat-Lock which is even likely to miss?

    If Forward Observe could be used as entire order that does not provoke an ARO,
    it would still be order intensive, but maybe worthwhile against hard to hit targets.

    And I'd like to see more Sniffers on Infiltrating Troopers,
    that might help Sensor and Sat-Lock to actually being used more often.

    P.S. (something else)
    A possibility to cancel G: Servant (without making it jump off rooftops) would be nice. Sometimes you are running out of oders and just want that specialist to be part of a fireteam or a coordinated order...
     
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  10. CabalTrainee

    CabalTrainee Well-Known Member

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    I want biometric visor reworked. Maybe make a biometric sensor out of it.
     
  11. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    I love the idea for inferior infiltrate and am a fan of giving higher level AD some control over the scatter. As for the other skills, also not a fan of the "roll a dice, win or get nothing" mechanic. One possible solution off the top of my head is to reduce dispersion to 8", and cause infiltrate, impersonate etc failures to scatter too. Now these troops will always land at least in the vicinity of where you'd like them, instead of bang on target or in a totally useless spot.

    Another alternative is that a failure will cause the model to deploy at that spot, out of marker state, and in something like the stunned or retreat state for a turn. IE they've been discovered before they're ready and your opponent has a chance to kill them. Then the risk/reward becomes less "I wonder if I roll well" and more about placement and enermy response options. People would start making 'risky' infiltrations in safer locations where the chances of being taken out are lower.

    I'd even support removing the rolls entirely. I really dislike that dice-only risk/reward play.

    To make them relevant I'd go so far as to give them old-school MSV3 effect - ie, they just see right through that shit.

    As is, its a niche application of what is essentially 'different MSV for different camo' and the mechanic of needing MSV type one or MSV type two for different marker states isn't interesting at all.
     
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  12. Vanderbane

    Vanderbane Well-Known Member

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    I’d like to chime in on these critical hit rework ideas I see being proposed. In general, it looks like the conversation revolves around ways to weaken critical hits.

    In keeping with my focus on the desired goals of a rule change rather than meta change implementation, I gotta be the one to ask “why?” By this, I mean, what’s the _goal_ of weakening critical hits in the game? What are we trying to achieve? To make games more predictable? To strengthen offense? To weaken dedicated ARO pieces? To make cheerleaders less relevant as deployment defenders? To weaken/strengthen visual mods like camo and ODD? To make armor more/less relevant? Depending on the combination of these goals, the particulars of any rework to criticals (or any other rule for that matter) would have to change, right?

    My concern is that these suggestions are not being proposed with a clear improvement to the game in mind, but because getting ganked by a critical hit is not a fun experience. And there’s something to that - if a game is insufficiently fun to play, then people won’t play it. But a game that shifts the balance too far towards predictable, unstoppable offensive pieces would not be a lot of fun, either.

    There’s been a lot of discussion about active turn FAT2 critical, and I think that’s clouding this discussion a bit. FAT2 may have some issues, but it can similarly be fixed by addressing FAT2, not the critical mechanic itself. Mostly, active turn criticals are less relevant than reactive turn crits (that is, if I’m rolling 5 dice against your one, the fact that I crit didn’t change the likely outcome of that exchange nearly as much as if you crit in ARO). So I don’t see how any change to the crit mechanic along the lines of those suggested doesn’t shift the game in favor of beatstick offensive gambits.

    So I’ll bang my drum again - what is it that you want to change about the game that you are trying to solve with a critical hit rework? If we work that out, then maybe we can find a tailored solution to fix it together.
     
  13. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    Having done a review there are a lot of characters in the game, and many of them have little extra bits. Just like some unit profiles do. Sometimes these extra bits are extra tasty to players.

    I can't see any consistent theme of "characters are always OP" thats suggested by hecaton.

    Thats not zhencha's design though. Its a flaw with IA as an army. so it immediately becomes a very poor comparison. and Dart... does cost more?! We could argue that 2 points more isn't enough, but it further weakens the argument shes somehow getting a crazy set of optimisation. Theres just a few more points invested.

    I agree with you about ARM, and also I think hackable being the main perpetrators in many of these recent comparisons (goldstein been another one) and also hope N4 re-looks at these characteristics.
     
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  14. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Characters that are designer self-inserts or donut steels seem to routinely be powerful, yes.

    No, two points more isn't enough, and the forced flaw in IA isn't a good idea in terms of faction balance.

    Hackable doesn't have a points discount. It used to be that most things past a certain power level had Hackable, but now it's just a flaw that some units have with no recompense. If you don't like it, should have played one of the factions that the designers liked.
     
  15. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    It's always hilarious when you post this considering Bostria has been a consistent Yu Jing fanboy for so long, and that Gutier isn't actually a massive fan of Nomads when interviewed.
     
  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Bostria isn't a designer. I don't see how that's relevant for Nomads.
     
  17. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    Wow you really like to try and find the worst motives for how things have evolved.

    How HI and hackable fit into the game seems to be off the mark. Hence I expect it will see some changes in N4.

    Sometimes profiles get nice things. Sometimes those profiles have names. Stop looking for a conspiracy.
     
  18. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Dart costs 34 points, the same as the Zhencha's cheapest profile.
     
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  19. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Bostria is as much of a rules designer as Carlos Torres, neither of them are Gutier.

    Nomads have got some very effective profiles (Riots, Kriza, Hecklers, Hollow Men, Puppets) that have made people cry "Undercosted" whereas if Gutier's feelings influenced power level surely they'd be dead last?
     
    #239 colbrook, Aug 13, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
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  20. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    That is just an outlier surely colbrook! There are new designers, designers who have no interest in balance! They're the ones slowly ruining the game!
     
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