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The definite N4 Comments, Suggestions, Ideas, wishlist's and Bugs that need fixing thread

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I guess that's true, and since other special ammo would need specific treatment, that doesn't rule out DA and EXP having something different than +1 damage roll...
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  2. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    they don't necessarily have to change, I suspect shotguns are changing to make C1 easier. Not super sure plasma will even be in C1 so the change might not be justified.
     
  3. Del S

    Del S Yujing(snow)ball

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    Plasma staying as-is makes plenty of sense to me. It's really only found on fairly expensive or rare units anyway and isn't all that common.
     
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  4. Djase01

    Djase01 0 12 Mastermind

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    Have the changes to MA been revealed? I've heard that it might be so that each level of MA stack but how will that work with MA 5?
     
  5. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Not yet, we know MA2 is +3/-3 and +1 DAM, but we don't even know if MA5 will even exist (or if it'll be in N4 but not C1)
     
  6. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Based on the numbers Bostria put up for tournies (and my recollection of the numbers from Asteroid Blues), CA is a fairly popular faction with a decent number of units with plasma.

    After thinking about it a bit more, I don't think things really need to change for special ammo (except plasma). Take EM: "+1 damage roll" simply means what someone (me?) had said before... fail either and suffer the effects. Since the effects don't stack, it just means that it's more likely to land such effects.

    Adhesive: 2 rolls against PH, IMM-2 if you fail either.
    AP: 2 rolls against ARM @ half value
    Breaker: 2 rolls against BTS @ half value
    DA: 3 rolls against ARM
    DT: 3 rolls against BTS
    EM: 2 rolls against BTS @ half value, ISO (+IMM-2) if you fail either
    EM2: 3 rolls against BTS @ half value, ISO (+IMM-2) if you fail either
    EXP: 4 rolls against ARM
    Fire: 2 rolls against ARM, keep rolling if you fail either
    Flash: 2 rolls against BTS, Stunned if you fail either
    K1: 2 rolls against ARM = 0
    Mono: 2 rolls against ARM = 0, Dead if you fail either
    Nano: 2 rolls against BTS
    Phero: 2 rolls against BTS
    Plasma: ... ummm, 3 rolls with the last roll going against attacker's choice (ARM/BTS)?
    Shock: 2 rolls against ARM, Dead if either fails on 1W troop
    Stun: 3 rolls against BTS, Stunned if you fail any
    T2: 2 rolls against ARM
    Viral: 3 rolls against BTS, Dead if any fail on 1W troop

    For FO and other ammo that does not induce a roll from the opponent, it just does the other crit thing, which is autowin the F2F.
     
  7. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    Did we though? All he said is another Saving Throw. That could still be jsut a roll, not an extra wound. Pass both to avoid damage instead of pass 1
     
  8. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    I want to see the new overall lethality rates against a variety of units and ammo for the new crit role. The total amount of damage a crit can do has gone up, but at different rates against arm values.

    An attacking ORC can now go unconscious to a single pistol crit aro which couldn't happen before.

    I want to know, mathswise, about how much ARM a multiwound model needs to need to benefit from the new system rather than the old one.
     
  9. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Assuming no cover then ARM3 vs DAM13 Normal ammo then the odds of 0 wounds from a crit equals the odds of 2 wounds from a Crit.

    Basically any time that DAM - ARM < 10 you're better off under the new system. At DAM - ARM = 10 then the benefits under this system (less wounds) equals the downside (chance of 2 wounds).
     
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  10. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    Huh, so it really does benefit the things we assumed it would benefit most: MI, HI and TAGs.

    That's neat.
     
  11. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    That makes sense to me. I suppose the risk it introduces though can't be underestimated, especially at the lower arm end. Stripping the guaranteed 2w safety blanket against unlikely b1 crits game wide.
     
  12. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    It does open the possibility for two crits and a hit to take a Tag completely to dead, in a way that couldn't happen before. To whoever that happens to, it's gonna suck.

    Though its way more likely to see a lot of bouncing shots, which is going to feel great.

    I might buy a jotum now.
     
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  13. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    Fair point, although this might also be an indirect buff to MI, HI and TAGs in the other sense that everything that isn't HI, MI or TAG is not known to commonly have 3+ ARM, so they're on the "new crits hurt more" spectrum.
     
  14. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    You're starting to talk low numbers there though.

    First you need to be Crit and then your opponent needs to fail both ARM saves. So the Pistol crit that puts down a HI in a single ARO happens but so rarely that it's highly unlikely in any one game. Also, by becoming more unlikely it makes Dodging, or similar, a more optimal decision in a lot of occasions: so it'll become rarer still.

    Yes, people will lose their HI to single crits. But they're much more likely to lose their 1W low ARM troops like that. This means that it's bad news for Dogged/NWI Warbands and SK. Warbands because they mostly don't get cover and SK because they tend to rely on visual MODs rather than ARM to survive, so will feel Crits more than their higher ARM peers.

    Edit: Honestly though, I think this ties into this thread's earlier discussion about how HMGs are dominant. This change means that HMGs very do nasty things to anything less than ARM2 (in Cover). I think there's a good argument for dropping HMG DAM to 14 while also making AP weapons relatively more accessible. This would emphasise that HMGs aren't the best weapon for hunting hard targets while also opening increasing the range of targets that low burst high lethality weapons compete with HMGs against.
     
    #2174 inane.imp, Mar 28, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2020
  15. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    This is true, and fairr
     
  16. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    So it's kind of an indirect buff to MI, HI and TAGs by virtue making their ARM slightly more valuable and having everyone else hurt a bit more from Crits.

    Neato burrito.
     
  17. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Yes. But I think MI were less hurt by Crits than they were hurt by Shock. Comparison of a Kamau and Nisse are instructive: despite the fact that a Nisse is has 2 more ARM its LESS survivable in a lot of scenarios, particularly active turn scenarios, than a Kamau with Shock Immunity. With N4 crits this narrows, but doesn't fundamentally change.
     
  18. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    Because they added a new one or because something else happened?
     
  19. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    Fair enough, I keep forgetting just how widespread Shock ammo is nowadays, mostly due to my tendency of using 2W units most of the time: feels like we have twice as many Red Furys nowadays than half a year ago, and that's just counting Red Furys as a Shock source.

    Still, it's a step in a better direction, either way.

    Probably because they added a Wildcard one with cheap fireteams, yeah. T:

    Which either means they dun goofed or that they already know N4 will have changes that'll make that not a goof.

    Which balances out to we have no idea. :T
     
  20. Mcgreag

    Mcgreag Well-Known Member

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    From the Adepticon 2020 video-seminar youtube comments:

    Answer to question about new crits:
    "bostria 17 hours ago
    You may suffer 2 wounds if you fail both rolls."