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The Big 0-12

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Keyrott, Apr 26, 2018.

  1. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    That is what I said.
     
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  2. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Blah, blah blah on topic "why the superpower won't use it's vast resources to focus as much of them as possible for critical black-ops missions requiring minimal personnel".

    I'ts really counterproductive. If you have means (resources) to fit as much of power/ability into "mission" slot you do that. That the whole point of advancing warfare technology.

    Yet another "blah blah" "fluff reason".
     
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  3. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    You're not understanding something important, @eciu .

    With the ops we see in Infinity games, it's quite literally a scratch force of whoever could get to the spot in time. If a Zeta TAG costs so much that you can only afford a couple thousand, instead of the tens of thousands of Squalos alone that PanO has, you can't have a Zeta TAG within reach of all your operational areas. It's called strategic mobility.

    Same problem the US had getting tanks to Iraq back in 1990, or again in 2003. Abrams tanks are so heavy that you can only put one per airplane. It'd take the entire USAF to lift a battalion of tanks. An Abrams tank can travel over 100mph if you take out the governor, but going that fast is hell on the tracks and suspension. So Abrams are usually hauled around on a lowboy trailer, by train, or by ship; only traveling on their own tracks when it's time to start shooting.
     
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    @Section9 USA's operational area is a hell of a lot larger than anyone else's. If all a nation has is two submarines, it's still very possible to send one to the coastline nearest Iraq if that's your only operational area outside your own territorial waters.
    Hello, Denmark ;) (I don't actually recall how many subs Denmark has, but I do recall that they did send one in response to USA's call to arms, and I have this itch telling me it was against Afghanistan and not Iraq)

    Point is, PanO likely has a few thousand unique military operations at any given time. Be they patrolling contested areas, exercises, etc. Spatha might only have the CA hot spots (that they coordinate more than handle on their own anyway) and clandestine operations to prevent PanO from confusing PanO interests with humanity's interests or Haqq from assassinating the wrong person, or Nomads from taking too much salvage, etc.
    So it's not too unbelievable to think that Spatha actually have more Zetas available for these clandestine operations than PanO has Uhlans for the same.
     
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  5. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Soooooo how does it work with Aleph characters, colonel Voronin etc. ?
     
  6. Shiwen

    Shiwen Commissar, Yu Jing Political Work Department

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    Knauf in Outrage wasn't a one-off Hexahedron crime, but a typical day in the Human Sphere? ^_^
     
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  7. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    There are more variables there: something subtle enough, that is not 100% traceable (black ops are deniable!), etc...

    In today's world, if you want to infiltrate a black ops team you don't go around in an Abrams battle tank, no matter how close you are to an USA garrison XD

    As for the characters, we can assume they got there, delivered a note/took command, and got out to do the mission with the assembled team, be it one carefully prepared or an ad-hoc group ^^
    And I wouldn't doubt Aleph has little problems when it comes to having multiple copies of the same hero active at the same time. It's not like the Shasvastii and Morat will present some sort of complaint because they got Achilles' boot on the face on Paradiso, at the same, on four of five different continents! XD
     
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  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Voronin is easy to explain. He's only ever taken in at most 5 games per year across the entire Infinity player base!
     
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  9. Del S

    Del S Tunguskaball

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    Only four this year: his ban covered two possible games, and one person will be fooled into wondering why he got banned and take him on his return.

    On the subject of the Zeta, it really does seem like economics. The US has looked at (and mostly gave up on) many lower-cost alternatives to get the firepower of an Abrams without the logistical footprint. The Russians keep a lot of T-72s in reserve despite the T-90 and T-14 being (theoretically) better tanks. Even the basic infantry rifles used show cost-saving efforts, the M16 and M4 could be replaced with a better rifle all round - but depending on what type of "better" rifle you issue the costs mount. Swap to a bullpup? Retrain troops to get used to bullpup quirks over traditional layouts. Change calibre? You've got a ton of ammo and possibly magazines to replace as well as other weapon accessories that might be built for the old rifle. Modify to a different gas system? Cheapest option with less follow-on but it can still add a bit of weight to a rifle. Not much, but it's enough to maybe need you to find something to make lighter elsewhere on the weapon.

    It's also about sledgehammers to crack nuts. The Zetas PanO has might be way more useful on front line service in Paradiso rather than skulking around a Druze camp somewhere in Bumblefartston, Human Edge. And the logistical train behind them might cost more too: mechanics, the pilots, etc, making it wasteful to deploy just a few at a time away from PanO military establishments, or it makes the footprint too obvious . Maybe O12 can make better use of them because they already have that in place somewhere close by to most places, but even PanO can't have bases everywhere, especially just for covert ops.

    There's also the propaganda issue. You lose this top-of-the-line war machine in a black op, the enemy gleefully say "look at what we destroyed when PanO attacked us!"
     
    #69 Del S, May 9, 2018
    Last edited: May 9, 2018
  10. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    As it has been discussed above it is the nature of ad hoc units, definitely if a really specialised unit is set up for a purpose, for example a player group set up for high end game in Infinity RPG, with enouph money and resources they can have whatever they want, but the tabletop represents ad hoc formations formed from whatever was available around at the time.

    It is not a question of if PanO can produce a zeta TAG, they can, it is not a question of if they could have a single Zeta TAG operating in a specialised small elite scale unit, they could, the question is would PanO spend the resources to have Zeta TAG level TAG actual military formations around the human sphere so a specialised formation can draw from them at a moments notice?

    Characters is quite simpler to imagine, they are assigned the task and they draw the rest of the team to form around them, if PanO got a Zeta TAG level character I would not object its a unique unit, Zeta level TAGS on the other hand according to fluff are too expensive for PanO to field them.

    From the really boring military perspective its a supplies and logistics issue, does a Zeta TAG perform as much as its cost, maintenance and required training of pilots and support personnel, can I have 3 TAGs that are slightly worse at the same price and personnel?

    As another example the Gecko fluff is brilliant from a military perspective, its junk for its intended purpose, but it costs so little it is a valuable asset in numbers and it is re-purposed to field a role it can outperform, I can really see someone in the military high command doing exactly that (em its useless as a tank, but it is cheap and fast we can re-purpose it as a scout vehicle).
     
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  11. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    The characters are the ones specifically assigned to do the mission, while all the non-named are whoever was closest.
     
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  12. Keyrott

    Keyrott Nomad Handyman

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    As far as how an 0-12 faction would be played, A human faction who has a focus on how many wounds its soldiers have kinda how Tohaa act with their Symbiont armor now. An actual police force focused on protection of its officers with huge riot armor that has multiple wounds, maybe even 2W MI and 3W HI or something like that. The HI who purpose is mainly to soak explosions, bullets and whatever the hell else, and launch in tear gas or stun grenades.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  13. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Probably Total Immunity and NWI instead of an additional Wound.

    HI with NWI are freaking tough to kill, and Total Immunity just adds insult to non-injury.


    That's really cool armor, where'd you pull it from?


    I hope something like that is what the Shooting Star looks like.
     
  14. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    That looks more like a Garuda, frankly XD
     
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  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I disagree with you both :p

    That's a light exoskeleton - she's carrying the drop pack on a weight support frame that's either passive or battery-powered, probably to help with impact, stability and weight - and not too much in the way of armour. I'm hoping for Medium Infantry to be designed more around this aesthetic where there's a distinction difference between Light Infantry (infantry that carries their own stuff), Medium Infantry (infantry that uses non-enclosed exoskeletons for movement and weight assist) and Heavy Infantry (Infantry that has a powered and fully enclosed suit).

    So... low-key hoping that's a design concept for the likes of Tiger Soldiers and Hellcats.

    Kind of a militarized version of this:
    [​IMG]
     
  16. Keyrott

    Keyrott Nomad Handyman

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  17. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks!

    That'd probably be S5 armor. I'm OK with big, bulky armors like that, even for allegedly high-tech forces, because sometimes you really do need a lot of armor mass to protect you. Say, EOD bomb suits, which would be a great example of a suit that should have Total Immunity.
     
  18. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    In Spain we have a single, VERY expensive riot van with water cannons and all the trappings.
    It seldom sees any use (I think, in fact, that it has never been used despite having been deployed several times). It simple does not fit through most of the narrow streets of the center of the oldest cities XD

    So, S5 power armor for police force would have size limitations aswell, but I doubt that will be a problem as long as O-12 has S2 HI too (someone has to remain on the docks after all! XD).
     
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  19. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Since when S5 is a problem in Infinity as there's no longer "narrow gate" ?
     
  20. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Narrow gate is not the problem (it just "slows you down" while you enter in prone state). Physically fit of the base is: you don't send big, hunky heavy troops inside narrow and confined spaces, you send troops that can move comfortably and that risk no collapse of the floor due to too much weight on little surface (granted, less of an issue on Space Stations. More in historical places, superrich whimsical's mansions, or low ghettos, or floors intentionally designed to collapse under more than 150kg of pressure on the same spot...).

    Not to mention, the really narrow alleys between buildings, where a normal person would have trouble crossing through while walking sideways, and a S5 would risk getting stuck.
     
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