Some thoughts after reading through the entire discussion ... I think this is the fundamental issue. Ariadna was reigned in on Order/body count. Without giving Ariadna access to all of the tools/weapons those other factions possess, this hurts Ariadna's competitive viability. To be clear, I'm not suggesting that Ariadna gain access to those other tools. Not having them is a defining faction identity. What they need is superiority in other areas (e.g., skills, leadership abilities, better toughness, better camo, or something else of the sort). Or, they need some viability removed from the other factions to make Ariadna's gameplan shine. When Ariadna is on even (or even below) Order footing with other factions, they are below those factions—by default—because of Ariadna's current faction-defining limitations. You think that. To be clear, you're not the arbiter of what *should* be ... right? Other people's opinions on the model cap and their desire to break it are less valid? I don't mean to be argumentative, but I think it's worth clarifying that a civil wishlist discussion shouldn't have to conform to your design parameters. It would be more helpful if you proposed your own ideas on how to rectify the situation, and showed why you think that's a better solution than just adding more bodies. Yes. Ariadna needs more skills/equipment to make them more effective at playing the indirect/ambush warfare they're supposed to use. Great suggestions. That's a fair point, and good advice. However, it's not apples-to-apples when one faction has a plethora of viable alternatives and the other doesn't have the same stable of alternatives. Well said.
No, it does not need to conform my design parameters, but it should take into account the design parameters of the game system. There is a reason, actually several, why the model cap was introduced and set to a certain amount and the entire N3 is a testament on the why. As for your actual question, in my opinion, the veterans of the faction should have some ideas on how the faction can be updated to the 15 models design space and this is what I am personally looking for to read here.
I understand that, when taken to an extreme, a horde of Caledonians can be a negative play experience. However, it's important to not use hyperbole (not saying that you are, per se) when comparing the most abusive lists of N3 vs some of the comparatively tame suggestions bandied about in this thread. I think it's possible to have a nuanced conversation about adding bodies to Ariadna lists as a faction differentiator. As already mentioned by numerous posters, other factions can add orders (via TacAware, +1 Lt order, etc.) and some factions can add bodies (via synched profiles, etc.) to bring their lists above the hard limit of 15—it's not unreasonable to think Ariadna might get some consideration as the low-tech horde faction.
The design discussion is always were you draw the line on how many orders in the order pool are too many. I do understand that tactical awareness, NCO and LT+ orders does potentially increase such orders, but not only they do not increase the attrition survival, but make the removal of the troops possessing such orders more impactful. Personally though, I do not like the Ariadna as a horde faction, it does not fit them, a planet on almost constant war with the environment, the local wild and not so wild life and the invaders from out of the system, is an environment that should have a relatively for the standards of the Human Sphere major powers, low population of at the very least military trained individuals, if nothing else Ariadna should be leaning more on the core of well trained veterans boosted by the hybrids of the planet than hordes of poorly trained troops. Setting that aside I guess rules like what Antipode assault pack (peripheral control) could be used to simulate other things like a veteran and reserve volunteers, without adding to the actual order pool.
I can see that, but as the low-tech faction, CB has kind of painted themselves into a corner with Ariadna. Ariadna can't outshine the hyperpowers with conventional weaponry. In a 1v1, head-to-head confrontation, the other factions' soldiers should seriously outperform Ariadna's. That doesn't work in a game balanced with every faction sharing the same order limit. How do you resolve that, give Ariadna weapons/armor/wounds/hacking comparable to the hyperpowers? Despite leveling the playing field, that would be a boring solution and would invalidate the lore. Is it possible to elevate Ariadna by lavishing them with more soft skills? At the very least, Ariadna should be lousy with Warhorse. What skills can they possess that would make them effective, interesting, and unique? I think giving them access to more and more varied fireteams could emulate the training you suggest. What else would suggest a trained military population?
Personally, I always saw this as the Stavka (or Sectorial equivalent) devoting more resources to each indiviual mission than any other faction. By fluff alone, a single Veteran Kazak is worth as much if not more to Ariadna's tiny, skills-focused army as a Swiss Guard is to PanO and an Avatar is to CA. Ariadna, as the perpetual underdogs, send whole squads of elites to missions that their command needs won- they have to pick and choose a few battles to match the big dogs in, making sacrifices elsewhere or merely holding the line in order to save the heroes for key operations that could change the course of wars. In terms of how to make a faction with inferior firepower and conventional tactics work with the same amount of Orders... well, Infinity hasn't really favoured actual conventional warfare ever. When I last got to play a proper game (when NCA was still around, hopefully that PDF comes out soon), I'd started taking a lone Fusilier Sniper for objective defense since it only really ever mattered in terms of making sure whichever Camo Infiltrator grabbed the OP died for its efforts. Speed, durability and soft control forcing opposition to slow down and use their own Orders inefficiently are easily as good as brute force, there just needs to be a balance between factions in terms of which advantages they have.
Personally though, I do not understand how 16 is horde but 15 is not. Even with 15 + multiple extra orders. Additionally personally I very much dislike Aleph, Combined army and other supposed super elite factions fielding 15 models on the table not even mentioning 2 groups, or 15+ orders. Does that fit your themes too? Your opinion sounds like a double standard used only to validate what you like or what you don't.
While I get your point, I still don't understand how 1-2 more bodies would turn Ariadna into a "horde" faction. If I'm thinking about horde factions, I'm thinking swarms of disposable bodies to overwhelm standard-sized armies. Think Skaven or Tyranids. Having 1-2 more troopers on a Skirmish battlefield of black-ops that field a maximum of 15 troopers has nothing in common with that trope imo. Yes, in N3 there were actual "horde"-like lists with 2-3 full combat groups, but I think we have all sufficiently clarified by now that this is not what we're suggesting or want to go back to. Because this is the crux of the problem. Ariadna is forbidden, as an intentional design feature, to access a lot of tools other factions get. Here's a not-so-short list just to remind everyone how big the gulf is: No MSV higher than lvl1 No Eclipse No significant hacking No White Noise No EVO hacking No Combat Jump No Mimetism -6 No Albedo No Hidden Deployment No Impersonators No Nanoscreen No Holomask or Holoechos No powerarmor (= 2W HI outside of S5) Max BTS of 3 No K1 weapons No Multi weapons No Combi weapons No E/M weapons outside of extremely limited E/M mines and one Blitzen (on a Dozer, wow) No Plasma No Vehicles That's a whole lot of restrictions. What does Ariadna get to counterbalance those significant limitations? Half their HI is unhackable (a lot of it actually is though), but they also pay a premium for that and are still just as vulnerable to E/M ammunition as power armor = not really an advantage They have ample access to T2 ammunition, while having lost their monopoly on it – the ammo type has proliferated to other factions by now (Kyosot, Kunai, Bashi Bazouk etc.). Also, T2 is dependent on units failing their armor saves first, and Ariadna has no T2 on weapons with a PS lower than 6 (with a few very rare exceptions: T2 Sniper Rifles on Caterans, Vassily, and Blackjacks, and a T2 BSG with PS5 on the Strannik). And even then, T2 automatically means no AP, so it really struggles against anything with decent armor. Ohotniks, which are... nice I guess? Main Battle Warbands, all of which have been significantly nerfed in N5 with losing their Immunity Total, nerfs to smoke grenade rangebands, and additional targeted nerfs on units like Bearpodes or McMurrough. That's... not a lot. And that is why simply saying "I think Ariadna should not be a horde army" when people suggest that maybe one way to narrow the gap is by allowing Ariadna to bring 1-2 more bodies, without offering any alternative suggestions, has started to ring increasingly hollow, @psychoticstorm.
Let us a play 8+8. We already have Intelcom +2, why not Lt+1 troop? Is 16 troops so unmanageable? Seasons and editions have passed and now, things exclusive to Ariadna are now available in other factions and Ariadna received almost nothing in exchange. Ok, you dont like spam and make the spammy faction limited to 15 troops, then, hyperpowers should be limited even more, right now, all the factions are too similar between them , only changing colors
That's why i loved the Mormaer T2 rifle. A PS 5 AP+T2 rifle, with NCO, X visor, BS 13, ARM 5 and linkable. Yeah, a PS 3 AP HMG sounds nicer, but this guy was an absolutely menace. Could only be better with NWI instead of dogged.
Always has been. It compensated by being available on higher-Burst platforms you could never find DA on, like Rifles. DA used to be found primarily on powerful CCWs and as one-shot reaction ammunition on expensive MULTI weapons. Haqqislam and Ariadna both used to punch up by putting incredibly lethal ammunition on small arms, something largely lost today amongst the over-modified guns across the board.
That's my point. That combined with the rof made it different and relevant, now it's not a different option or flavor but a straight downgrade.
If you think the issue is that we don't have enough body on the field compared to before N4 there are ways to go around that without changing the 15 troops limits : G synch or G controlled Antipodes are one good exemple. 5 pts camo troops with tac aware that can be useful only with this single tactical order just to be a speedbump near important objectives (or sometimes actually do something is used actively). I don't understand why the new kibervolk dog is not G synch with the dozer ... Pano have their auxbots we got our dogs. Our remotes or vystrel could have been candidate for this rule also. I remember a time When you needed a doozer with control device to hire remotes. Could make sense to have an engineer with a remote control and wire. Could even justify that you can't hack our remotes for example (which doesn't happens often anyway) We could also have more boobytraps. I don't get why hassassin get minelayer (2) and we don't ... Just saying the problem could be fixed without twisting or breaking the general rules.
Ariadna (or at least TAK) gets loads of Minelayers and Decoys. Maybe thats's how the guys in my meta play, but in the last game of 250pts Limited Insertion I have faced 7 models and 6 Camo Markers... and I know it could easily have been worse, if any of the 3 models under the Camo was a Minelayer (my opponent wanted it on non-Minelayer profiles, because he needed them as specialists). But it certainly influenced my tactic - I had to treat every Camo marker as a potential mine, as well as a potential BS attack. Either way, a lot of interesting ideas there! Truth to be said, some TAK lists I face have so many Camo markers my opponents need long lists of notes to remember which one is a model, which is a Decoy, and which is a mine... and makes a Sensor-equipped model very useful for me. If I can fit it into the list.
Out of curiosity, was there a forum software issue recently? I haven't been able to log on, for a few days, until now.
T2 is in between DA and Shock Ammo. Better than Shock because it ignores Shock Immune troops and can put down HI. Almost ast good as DA because it still needs 1 ARM save. But if it does, fantastic! With a lot of troops now having the No Cover I'm not as concerned about a few more troops.
