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Testing the Hulang.

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Triumph, Feb 18, 2019.

  1. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I have been busy trying to make the Hulang work. After a few tries conceptulising a list to support the Hulang's most unique feature, his E/M grenades I settled on something that should be able to put enemies into the Targeted state.

    Hulang
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    GŬILÁNG (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)
    GŬILÁNG (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)
    CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    HÚLÁNG (Fireteam: Duo) 2 Submachine Gun, E/M Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 41)
    ZHĒNCHÁ (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, D.E.P., Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 34)
    KǍNRÈN Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, MadTraps / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 28)
    DĀOYĪNG Lieutenant L2 Hacker (Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 29)
    PANGGULING (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    MECH-ENGINEER Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    LÙ DUĀN Mk12, Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (0 | 21)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5 [​IMG]3 [​IMG]6
    SON-BAE Yaókòng Smart Missile Launcher / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 18)
    SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5)
    SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5)
    SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5)
    CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)

    2.5 SWC | 299 Points

    I originally went for the full Sat-Lock/EVO support boat. I eventually settled on using skirmishing FO's and Spotlight after I considered the Daoying's odds of actually pulling that off is roughly 1/3 against WIP13-14 targets which is reasonable when the spare LT orders are considered.

    Put the list down on Supremacy today against OSS. Not the best fit considering the desire for skirmishing KHDs for the mission bonus, but the Daoying was enough to make the Xenotech not awful.

    Pulled Mapping for the Classified, very good one given the extra mission parameters and the Zencha gave me a strong chance of completing it. Lost the roll for Initiative, opponent chose first turn and I settled for the close side of the table in the picture.

    [​IMG]

    The various see through advertisement holos count as low vis terrain.

    Opponent deployed first. After they were done with their first round this is what I could see.


    Operations Subsection of the S.S.S.
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9
    DAKINI Tacbot HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 21)
    DAKINI Tacbot MULTI Sniper Rifle / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 21)
    DAKINI Tacbot Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 15)
    DAKINI Tacbot Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 13)
    CSU (Specialist Operative) Breaker Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    PROXY Mk.1 Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    PROXY Mk.5 (Forward Observer) 2 Submachine Guns, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    APSARA (G: Jumper Level Z) Submachine Gun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22)
    SHUKRA (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25)
    DANAVAS Hacker (Hacking Device Plus. UPGRADE: Maestro) Combi Rifle + Pitcher / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 25)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]2
    LAMEDH Rebot Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    LAMEDH Rebot Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)

    3 SWC | 193 Points

    Dakini link scattered around the building to the top left to shoot down the road and see most of the hill on the right, Flash pulse bots posted up on the two small buildings and the Doctor proxy hid behind the large building on the left. The FO Proxy started behind the red objective room on the hill.

    Counting my opponent's SWC and points I estimated 220pts on the table including a TO proxy. Doctor Proxy had no Yudbot and basically nothing to heal on the left side surrounded by Dakinis, so I moved to the conclusion the remaining SWC and points were being taken by an Asura Spitfire in reserve planning to deploy near the Doctor on the left side, with another 0.5 SWC for a total of 5.5 on a TO ADH Proxy.

    With that in mind the Chaiyi and Lu Duan were put on the left with the Gongcheng nearby to help them. 2 Monks went on the left to have a chance of intercepting the assumed incoming Asura, one went on the right behind the stair case to provide smoke for the Hulang and Kanren impersonating the Hulang with the mad traps. I wasn't confident that the Hulang wouldn't get rambo'd down going second even with the Mad Traps so I opted to deploy it as far away from the Asura's starting point as I could.

    Kuang Shi spread out evenly and the Sonbae just sat behind a building. The Daoying used Bravery to start on top of a building in the left quadrant.

    Guilang FOs were placed on the roof of the red building on the 24" line, this one was preparing to drop repeaters to catch out the Asura and Dakinis if they pushed up. The other one sat in the middle behind the square building ready to move repeaters to cover the hill and objective room if necessary. Zencha was held in reserve.


    I was almost right. An Asura was the reserve piece and was placed in the spot I expected. However it was a HD+ (with Redrum) Asura which messed up my plans of using a repeater to mark it as a target with the Daoying through the deployable repeaters.

    I decided trying to react to reinforce the left flank would be a mistake and just doubled down on forcing the right flank, placing the Zencha on top of the white hexagon building.

    Xenotechs were attached to the Asura and Hulang.


    Aleph Turn 1: FO proxy moved into the objective building, smacked a console then went into Suppressive Fire.

    Asura ran forward with the Xenotech keeping it close to use as a shield against any SML attempts. Activated the green console, then kept advancing up to the blue one and activated that too and took down the Chaiyi as well. Xenotech planted the Multiscanner then both models retreated behind the green dumpster next to the middle building on the left and the Asura went into Suppressive Fire.


    Yu Jing Turn 1: Impetuous troops advanced, none of them ended up dieing one Monk got a lucky break against the Asura and didn't go down the SF.

    Zencha climbed down the building and went around the right side of the objective room to remove LOF from the Dakini sniper and other remotes. It got discovered in the process. With suprise shot gone I opted to place a mine in the doorway threatening the FO Proxy, then activated the Zencha again and hosed the Proxy down. Activating the Zencha some more it activated the console then fell back into the middle of the room behind some scatter terrain and reactived Camo.

    In hindsight, should've done all of this with the Hulang instead of moving the Zencha but I was blinded by greed and wanted to move the Zencha up to try and do Mapping later for 2 objective points. Fucked up later in the turn and didn't have enough orders to move the Xenotech into a dominated zone because of this.

    Gongcheng fixed the Chaiyi.

    Second group advanced a Monk all the way up behind the central building. Unfortunately for my opponent he miscalculated by deciding the hug the green dumpster for cover it meant he couldn't see the Monk that proned around the corner up to the bin. It also turns out I had guessed the nature of the TO Proxy incorrectly, it was a sniper not a hacker. Fortunately from its perch on the building behind the Asura it was also unable to see the monk as the dumpster was close enough to prevent LOF to a prone model coming around the corner. With that in mind, smoke was then thrown in front of the Asura. The Monk made a prone move without stealth to burn the Asura's ARO, then left prone and moved 4" into CC while maintaining smoke cover.

    The second monk then ran into combat with them both to take advantage of the bonuses. Unfortunately the smoke was poorly placed and he only got 1 swing getting shot by the Sniper Proxy on the way in. Managed to stick 2 wounds into the Asura though, then the remaining Monk made another attack, crit and finished it off.


    Turn ended with my 3 quadrants to Aleph's 1. However both players got 1pt because Aleph moved up the Xenotech and I ran out of orders because of an extra one being spent trying to smack a console a second time with the Zencha.

    Aleph turn 2: Lamedh was moved into group 1.

    Danavas hacker moved up from behind the green bus stop in the middle of the table, ran up the escalators to the objective room to peak on the Zencha's camo marker. Turns out it wasn't a Danavas hacker it was fucking Sforza with my fake HI's worst nightmare, a fucking Viral Rifle. Sforza discovered the Zencha, took him a few more orders but he managed to kill it much to my disappointment. It did however cost about 6 orders to pull off so it was practically my opponent's entire turn

    Dakinis moved up to the red building in the middle planning to take over the aggression for the dead Asura shooting the Monk on the way.


    Yu Jing turn 2: Last remaining Monk ran in front of the Sniper Proxy and died from a cross table shot. Kuang Shi managed to live.

    Guilang FO on the roof decloaked and dropped a repeater. Daoying needed both LT orders but managed to mark the sniper Dakini with Spotlight. Son-Bae fired 2 missiles, killing the Sniper Dakini and a combi rifle one.

    Sforza had re-holo'd with one holo peeking around a doorway. Kanren ran up around the buildings and sent a holoecho to peek on it, my opponent decided this was a real one and took a shot revealing the doorway Sforza to be the real one. The Kanren then re-holo'd and killed Sforza with a Surprise shot.

    Daoying and Guilang coordinated Camo. Hulang ate up the rest of the orders moving up and getting the Xenotech to plant its multiscanner.


    Still 3 Quadrants to 1, this time both players scored for Xenotechs in zones.


    Aleph turn 3: Lamedh was moved into group 1.

    Opponent decided he had only one possible play to get back from behind and that was to move the Dakinis after my LT. I opted to try and immobilise them once, then my opponent realised the Sniper Proxy could see the repeater on the roof and shot it putting an end to that. Remaining Paramedic Dakini, CSU, and HMG Dakini fought their way up to the roof to attempt a shot at the Daoying. Paramedic got flashpulsed then the CSU shot by a random Kuang Shi pistol on the way through. In the end it was a desperate play with the HMG Dakini but the odds were garbage shooting on 4s while it was close enough to be counter hacked on 14s. Guilang on the roof shot the Dakini in the back of the head in ARO after the first attempt.

    With that opponent decided to call it. I was going to flip 2 more consoles in my turn and he wouldn't score for Xenotech that turn either, and I was in position for secure HVT which made the game impossible to recover.


    -------------------

    So. The Hulang didn't get to do shit. Partially due to my greed for the classified, partially because of my concern that going second it couldn't be protected against a highly aggressive rambo piece which I believe was the correct assumption still.

    So going forward the list needs to be changed. The Lu Duan is likely to get dropped. I like it, but there's too many other camo toys fighting for orders here. I will attempt to sort out working in a Husong and a Warcor to improve AROs.
     
    #1 Triumph, Feb 18, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2019
  2. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the write up. I hope you try him out again.
     
  3. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
    Warcor

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    Good write-ups. Shat myself when that Sforza came out and took away Zhencha :/

    Reading your review, Hulangs could do some kind of Anchor action. Even if his CC capabilities are slightly above average, presence of that guy guts down our enemies from extending forward. Mono CCW is still something IMO?

    Still he needs a lot of visual support. I don't think he'll fit up into IA lists where we lack visual grenades. Good idea using TR bots though; I could try it next time.


    P.S. Nice looking table. Winter theme?
     
  4. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    That is the other plan. To place him behind something like a Daofei.

    The table is a modular MDF set, the tiles are a mix of white and light grey although it doesn't really show up as anything but white with my potato camera. Aiming for a white/red neo Tokyo look. In the process of replacing alot off the larger buildings with ones that fit the aesthetic better.
     
    ObviousGray likes this.
  5. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
    Warcor

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    Hey, thats really cool site. Thanks!
     
  6. smog

    smog Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    I’m toying with the idea of pairing him with the biggest gun we’ve got (Yan Huo) and when the opponent dives behind cover or disappears in a red cloud, run the hulang forward. Could also work if I deploy first, and use the YH as a deterrent while I keep the Hulang in reserve
     
  7. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    The Hulang I think works much better in Vanilla. There's so much more that can support him.

    Liberto is fantastic as far as i've seen so far, either one. The Liberto can be the one getting rid of mines for him lol.
    Guilang Minelayer is always good.
    Kanren! I like disguising a Kanren Killer Hacker as a Hulang. Yes you might have 2 Hulang but what's what?
    Team-up Daofei with Hulang could be pretty good too.
    Zhencha is not bad support but I like the cheaper support for him.
     
  8. Miraclebutt

    Miraclebutt Well-Known Member

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    Keep in mind that your Hulang not really doing anything isn't necessarily an indictment on its performance; if your opponent makes a point of avoiding the guy with a Monofilament CCW and E/M Grenades, then he's doing his job as a deterrent.

    Think about locking down a firelane with a Haidao MSR in a Core; most opponents simply won't go down that part of the table if they don't have the tools to fight that immediately on hand. The Haidao in this case isn't actually killing anything, but it's still passively limiting your opponent's options and forcing them to take suboptimal routes to achieve their objective. A Hulang sitting on a console is just a midfield example of that concept in practice.
     
    colt likes this.
  9. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    This was not the case. The Hulang was the one avoiding the opponent.
     
  10. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    Do we know yet if/when we can expect a model for the Hulang?
     
  11. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    No news yet.
     
  12. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I don't think the EM grenades are really a core part of the Hulang's kit, personally, so I don't really understand what this list is trying to do. Otherwise, why not just play Aleph and use the Mk5?

    I'm not claiming to know what the best use is for it yet, but a Liberto and at least one heavy shooter (Daofei, Hsien) are going to be key to your Hulang being able to get into his main threat range with the dual SMGs.

    I would skip the Zhencha entirely, upgrade a Guilang to a Daofei, and drop the Lu Duan for a Rui Shi instead.
     
  13. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    What exactly was your plan with the hulang? And how did the rest of your list support that.

    I would find your lack of long range weapons an issue. To me the hulang looks like a brawler, and for that to happen you need to achieve major firelane dominance so he's not wasting orders dodging heavy aros.
    Yu Jing is well suited to doing that, and ignoring the heaviest of Aro pieces.

    Your second combat group is... Interesting. I'd suggest putting at least one utility model in there to use the spare orders if your monks eat it or you don't have a need to move them or smoke that turn. A good use I've seen is a skirmisher who spends a few orders laying mines.

    Edit: looking at the lists and the table again the aleph player really played poorly.
     
  14. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    If I don't make use of either the E/M grenades or the D-Charges I run into the problem of a fake 2 wound BS12 mimetic shooter is kind of outperformed in faction there are alot of other options I could fit in there. Like a Dao Fei, gets you better rangebands for a MR, enhanced deployment, better accuracy, more wounds/armour, and a real marker state which lowers points investment in protecting the model.

    So I need to make it work or the model is kind of a write off.

    I have a relatively strict no Xeno policy. My first concern with the Hulang which is what I was examining in this write up was survivability. If I cannot make the model work without it I'll revisit the cheap minelayers like the Libertos at a later date.


    For quadrant missions I don't find a relative lack of long range weapons a problem. Quadrant missions have alot of infighting. Models come to you to contest zones and there's alot of 0-16" fighting. Previously I have had a Dao Fei HMG straight up struggle to be useful all game because too much of the active turn combat wanted him to root out and destroy Nomad/Druze camo markers within the 8" rangeband which he was terrible at.

    For bypassing long range AROs necessary I have a second combat group that will gladly spend all of its orders hurling smoke around. If there is something like the Kamau MSR in a link, nothing in Vanilla can safely take a gun fight with that anyway, so you buff the Lu Duan and coordinate it with the FOs to mark up the Kamau and then drop missiles on its head.


    It's bare by design to look like a Tiger BS might be in the second combat group. The missing points from the Lu Duan and the uncertainty under the 4 camo markers points put it within range of someone hitting that conclusion from counting the list, further enhanced by AD troops being popular on quadrant missions.


    The opponent made one move I disagreed with, which was leaving the Asura too close and putting it into SF mode instead of spending his last order to move it away again. On the other hand if he didn't do that he wouldn't contest my quadrant on the left side, then in my turn as player 2 I get 3 quadrants and get ahead so I can't completely fault him there on the move there was logic behind it and he was hoping the TO MSR proxy was enough to help it out.

    What do you feel he did wrong?
     
    #14 Triumph, Feb 25, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2019
  15. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    @Triumph I don't think you explained the hulang role? Just an expensive model to capture quadrants? A piece remover?

    In regards to your opponent. It's always a bit of a guessing game just basing on a text battle report.

    But from what you said, he failed to recognise he had long range dominance, and also made a classic first turn player mistake of thinking they have to take your quadrant/alpha strike. In supremacy its arrogant to think you can take 3 quadrants in round 1 unless you have a very good first turn, it's about the long game, skirmishing, maybe try to snipe the xenotech carrier. Put some points on the board to set the tempo to put player 2 under pressure to overextend early. Because it's a mission which is tough to score a stack of points on turn 2, and dominating more quadrants is worth so little.

    He then chose to use his most expensive piece/best model to shut down a second turn grab, and pushed it too far up on turn 1, and even achieved very little with it.

    I'm guessing your hulang plan was to kill the asura, but given your opponent was so careless you had no need. Had he been more cautious and used the asura defensively to counter your smoke spam, the hulang might have been a good tool to dislodge her to stall one of his quadrants .
     
  16. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Its purpose is to be an attack piece that can safely attack tough targets/links via accurate spec fire if necessary. The problem I'm having with it is making sure it doesn't get jumped and killed because of the threat it poses.

    Yes this is true.


    Saying the Aleph player had long range dominance isn't really correct. The Aleph player had more long range weapons. However, Yu Jing was primarily using a bunch of camo markers that largely do not care about a bunch of snipers posted on a building. They can safely scoot through their fire lanes to get where they need to go. The mission parameters also dictate that these long range guns need to advance to score, which pushes them into skirmisher territory where SMGs, Mines, and Shotguns are way more valuable than Snipers.

    You can't really dominate long range engagements if your opponent can actively circumvent that and refuse to ever take a long range fire fight. Like I said earlier quadrant missions are way heavier on infighting.


    I agree with the sentiment but the player was trying to take 2 quadrants not 3. Both forces were heavily deployed in a refused flank on opposite sides of the table. The Asura was facing off against a pair of monks, a Kuang Shi, a Pango (disguised Lu Duan), Flash pulse bot, and a camo marker on a hard to access rooftop.

    His plan to cover the Asura with the Proxy Sniper would've worked if he didn't jump the gun on the reveal, but in his defense it was a shot he had to make an eyeball call on it without actually checking the LOF or he would've given away the position regardless.

    If things went according to plan for him we go into the end of turn 1 with 2 quadrants each, but Aleph is ahead having already having 3 consoles activated and can spend turn 2 focusing on fighting with the Asura.


    I find this to be the exact reason why you can't afford to fall behind in Supremacy, if you fall behind turn 1 you need to fight twice as hard just to even level the score let alone get ahead.


    I actually planned to lay into it with the buffed Lu Duan if the monks failed to reach their targets, turn 1 is out of sequence the second combat group was resolved first. I had alot of potential spare orders for it to do stuff with, so it could've just attempted to brute force one or two wounds off the Asura and make it easier to finish off in a later turn.
     
    #16 Triumph, Feb 25, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2019
  17. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Adjusted the list and had another game today, unfortunately it wasn't of a quality worth a write up and didn't really provide any further relevant experience.


    Hulang
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9
    GŬILÁNG (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)
    GŬILÁNG (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)
    CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    HÚLÁNG (Fireteam: Duo) 2 Submachine Gun, E/M Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 41)
    ZHĒNCHÁ (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, D.E.P., Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 34)
    DĀOYĪNG Lieutenant L2 Hacker (Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 29)
    MECH-ENGINEER Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    HÙSÒNG Yaókòng HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    HÙSÒNG Yaókòng HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5 [​IMG]4 [​IMG]6
    SON-BAE Yaókòng Smart Missile Launcher / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 18)
    SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5)
    SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5)
    SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5)
    CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    WARCOR (Aerocam) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)

    4.5 SWC | 298 Points

    I do however feel more comfortable in keeping the Hulang alive with this list.
     
  18. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I like that list. Though since you have plenty of specialists I think making one of the Guilang a Minelayer would be beneficial. Both with the mine but give you a point so you could add a servant to the Engineer. You can then have him by one Husong and the servant by the other.
     
  19. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    The engineer already has Yaozao and the Guilangs are FOs to make sure there's plenty of access to targetting for combined orders if necessary to crack open defensive link teams.
     
  20. ambisinister

    ambisinister Broken Zoetrope

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    Is your primary use for group 2 to feed orders to smoke or missiles? Or I guess kuang shi ramboing if they find themselves in an opportune spot to exploit something.

    Tangentially, do you have ever find yourself using biolocator with the guided missiles, or is it just not worth it?